Episode Summary
I recorded a practicing medium's brain while she worked. This conversation originally aired on the Acid for the Squares podcast in the episode "We Did a Scientific Test to See if Mediumship Is Real | E80." You can watch the original conversation. The team brought a medium (referred to here as S.) to Peak Brain Institute in Los Angeles, capped her head, and asked me to record what her brain did at rest and what it did when she shifted into a reading. I went in to collect data, not to settle a metaphysical debate. What I found in the data is worth walking through, because the brain did something most brains will not do.
What is a QEEG and what does it actually measure?
We ran a quantitative EEG, also called a brain map. We put a cap on the scalp, fill the wells with conductive gel, and record electrical activity from across the cortex while the person sits still for several minutes, some of it eyes closed and some eyes open. Then we compare that recording to normative databases of people the same age across roughly a thousand variables: the speed of brain waves, where they sit on the scalp, how strongly different regions connect.
A resting QEEG picks up traits, not feelings. These are the stable features you carry around across time. Because they are stable, they usually do not change much when someone concentrates or meditates. That stability is the whole reason this case is interesting. If you want the full picture of what a brain map shows and how the session runs, I cover it in QEEG Brain Mapping: What It Is, What It Shows, and What to Expect.
Can people change their own brain waves on command?
The conventional wisdom in EEG research is that you cannot acutely shift your brain state in real time. Big state changes usually require fatigue, medication, or something equally heavy. When I was at UCLA doing my PhD, my advisor's position was that people cannot voluntarily change their EEG. Then we brought in a Tibetan monk who said he could activate one hemisphere at a time, and he did exactly that. It surprised everyone in the room.
Here is the rate I see in clinical work. Among people with deep contemplative experience, maybe one in ten to one in twenty can change their brain on demand in a way the EEG can detect. Even practitioners who tell me they have meditated for fifty years show little measurable change about half the time they try. Voluntary state-shifting is rare.
Every spiritualist and medium I have recorded has been able to produce a real state shift. S. did it almost instantly, and we caught several versions of it because the cap stayed on for a long recording session.
What did the brain map show at rest?
Most of S.'s resting map sat in the normal range, age-matched and unremarkable. The standout feature was a heavy load of beta waves over the front-middle of the head, near the anterior cingulate cortex. That region holds thoughts in mind and selects among competing ones. Hers was running hot, the way a CEO runs when stuck in micromanaging mode. Think of this, now think of this, now this. That pattern can tip into perseveration and a stuck, ruminative quality.
This is one of the patterns I call the gifted-or-tortured-poet brain. The mind is sharp and grips ideas like a steel trap, and the same grip cramps into anxiety. You can read more about how stable EEG signatures predict day-to-day function in Biohacking with EEG Phenotypes.
I also saw elevated beta behind the right ear, over the region that takes in the sensory and social world. At rest, a strong signal there often shows up in people who cannot filter background input: too loud, too bright, social signals too intense. That feature tracks with strong social sensitivity and, at the extreme, social anxiety. For the circuit-level breakdown of that pattern, see Biohacking Sensory and Social Processing.
What changed when she shifted into the reading?
About twenty minutes in, as she went deep into the practice, three things moved.
Delta surged. Big red and orange blobs of delta appeared on the left side, strongest at the left precentral gyrus. Delta is not a band we think in; it is the band we live in, the one that runs the heart and lungs and that dominates deep dreamless sleep. The left precentral gyrus holds focus on a target or turns focus off, which is part of how we stay asleep without being yanked awake by every sound. Seeing strong delta there means the part of her brain that stabilizes attention was going offline, as if drifting toward sleep, while she stayed awake, made eye contact, and spoke. Awake at the surface, sleep-like underneath.
Beta and connectivity climbed at the front-middle. The anterior cingulate region that was already hot at rest lit up further and started driving connectivity outward, sending coherent signals to the regions that stabilize attention and to the right-ear sensory-social area. Her project manager was talking to everything at once.
The brain sped up. Overall processing speed nudged from normal up to slightly above average as the system revved.
If I had been handed that second map cold, with no context, I would have read it as severe ADHD with a spacey, checked-out quality, possibly someone drifting toward sleep or a mild dissociative event. The EEG was clean. No seizure activity. The picture was drifts of sleepiness taking over while she stayed present. Dissociative and concentrated at the same time, which is an unusual combination to see in one recording.
Why couldn't she remember what she said?
S. described not remembering most of the reading, and not even registering the sitter's name despite hearing it repeatedly. The data lines up with that. Two mechanisms matter here.
First, the delta surge. A brain producing that much delta is partly in a near-unconscious mode, which is hard to lay down as accessible memory, the way most dreams slip away within minutes of waking.
Second, the alpha waves spread out in time. Alpha encodes timing and gates the handoff of information into conscious awareness. When alpha slows in an otherwise ordinary state, you get word-finding trouble, the tip-of-the-tongue feeling, hunting for names. She showed an accentuated version of that, which fits the experience she described of knowing the information was there but struggling to grab the words for it.
Is this brain damaged or trauma-marked?
The map shows a brain scanning the outside world and evaluating for threat. That signature climbed during the reading, and it was present at rest too. I would expect her to carry threat sensitivity, some rumination, and heightened social awareness in daily life, the kind where you cannot help noticing the person across the room having a hard day.
What a map cannot tell me is the origin. Whether that sensitivity was acquired or built in, whether it functions as a gift or a burden, the EEG stays silent. I can only say how unusual a feature is and what it usually correlates with in present-day patterns. When that lines up with someone's lived experience, we understand a little more. For how this threat-scanning circuitry works and what trains it, see Biohacking Fight or Flight and Where Is Love in the Brain?.
What does this tell us about consciousness?
The honest answer is that brain mapping is phenomenological. Much of what I read in any EEG, even an ordinary one, is pattern without explanation. We can see ADHD, anxiety, trauma, fatigue, sound sensitivity. We often cannot say why. Brains are strange and full of features that jump out without a cause attached.
So I will tell you what we caught: a fast, repeatable, voluntary state shift, with surging delta, slowing alpha, and rising frontal connectivity. That is a real data point. It does not prove or disprove anything about where the information in a reading comes from. There are speculative frameworks people raise here, including the orchestrated objective reduction idea that quantum activity in neuronal microtubules underlies consciousness. That is a hypothesis at the far edge of speculation, not something an EEG can test.
The state shift itself is solid. The interpretation of what produces a medium's experience is not something this tool set can answer, and I am comfortable saying so.
Can you train your brain to shift states?
State shifting is exactly what neurofeedback teaches, through operant conditioning of specific frequency bands. The difference between a practiced state-shifter and the rest of us is largely trained voluntary control. Most people cannot move their delta or alpha on command. With feedback that rewards the target pattern, that control becomes accessible. If you want to understand the mechanism and the evidence behind it, start with Is Neurofeedback Legitimate? A Research Overview and the broader neurofeedback topic page.
The practical takeaway: a stable resting brain map gives you a baseline of your traits, and that baseline is the thing you can measure, then train. If you want to see your own delta, alpha, and beta distribution and the connectivity across your cortex, book a QEEG. Measure it first. Then decide what you want to change.
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Full Transcript
On today's episode, we decided that we would do an experiment. Many of you, I'm sure, saw Susan Gra's episode where she does a spontaneous mediumship reading on Tanya and myself. That clip actually went extremely viral. >> I need to pause, please. I have a spirit talking to me for you. One is Vincy Boy or something like that. >> Stay in your channel. We don't have to go back to the >> Your grandmother's a gifted medium. Did you know that? my grandma. >> We've been very called to take all of this paranormal and psychic phenomenon and really, you know, put it through the scientific method. We really believe in merging the worlds. >> We had our dear friend Jesse May Paluso and we had neuroscientist Dr. Andrew Hill. >> We asked him if he could do a reading of Susan Gra while she practices mediumship. We went down to Peak Brain Institute in Los Angeles, which is where Dr. Hill operates from. You're going to see this test run on Susan and you're also going to get to see the reading she does on Jesse May Paluso. >> And also mind you, we did not tell Susan at all who was coming. >> And afterwards, we will have Dr. Hill, Susan Gro, and Jesse May all in studio to do a post-mortem and talk about the results. So sit back and relax and enjoy this very first scientific experiment here on Acid for Squares. Roger. Please. >> Oh, good to see you. Hey. Of course. My pleasure to see you guys. >> Susan's a little different. She died when she was a kid. >> Okay. She got locked in a freezer and was like declared dead and ever since she's had like a connection to the other side. So, she doesn't have an actual physical practice like Tyler Henry doing automatic writing, right? So, it's less trained. It's more of a innate ability. So, I don't know what we're going to find. I'm all about the data. So, I would just want to do, you know, a resting baseline and then see what her brain looks like then and looks like when she's doing her thing. >> Good afternoon. I'm Andrew. Nice to meet you. >> Hi. It's nice to meet you. >> So, we're going to do something called a quantitative EEG or a brain map where we're going to put a cap on your head and squirt it full of gel to measure your brain waves and then have you sit still for about 10 minutes or so gathering baseline data. Uh, some of that eyes closed and some eyes open. And then that'll be it for the actual assessment of your brain. We'll take that later on and compare that to databases of people your age and look how unusual your brain is in about a thousand different variables, the speed of brain waves, the distribution, how they're connected. And we can see big features of stress, sleep, attention, speed of processing, things like that. And so normally the QBEG or the resting EEG is pretty stable. It shows features of your brain across time. When somebody does something really intense, sometimes they create a state shift. And that's what we're looking to get today is to see what you're doing. If there's a big state shift in your brain when you're doing your practice >> if I'm if it's actually like that most of the time, what happens? >> We will see unusual features in your brain. I won't know that they're from this. But sometimes, uh, I think every single person I've done, every spiritualist or psychic I've done has been able to shift their brain. >> Oh, yeah. >> More voluntarily. And that's a very unusual thing. I was yeah I was at UCLA doing research my PhD and my advisor was like no people can't change their EEG and we brought in a Tibetan monk who's like oh yeah I can activate one half at a time and he could and we were very very surprised but the conventional wisdom is you can't acutely change your brain quickly from state shifts. It really takes fatigue or medication or something. >> Oh okay. >> So when I've done recordings people doing trans work there is a a very quick shift off. You can feel it and you feel it in your body, too. >> So, it's really interesting. It's like a >> feeling like you're almost in a trance, but you're not. >> Okay. So, I'm just recording now. And why don't you just let your mind go and you can lead into your practice. >> Is it not changing? >> No, it is. >> Because I feel like I'm bouncing off the walls. >> Yeah. Your brain looks like you're bouncing off the walls. >> It is. >> Yeah. Looks really busy. You seem so calm from the outside. >> I It's inside my head. >> Yeah, your brain looks really really busy, FYI, right now. >> Thank you. It feels like I'm um like stepping outside my body right now. >> Okay. >> Um it's hard to describe it, but I'm not in my in my body. >> Okay. >> I am, but I'm It's I don't know how to describe it. It's Huh. Someone's talking to me. >> Looks like it's trying to drop away and it comes back. >> Yep. I'm trying to calm it. Do you want me not to comment? >> No, you can do whatever you like. I'm just watching. Okay. >> Okay. >> Whenever you're done with this phase, we'll bring in someone for you to read, but you can take several minutes if you wish. >> I'm already reading. Should we go get our guest or would you like a little bit more time? >> Um, it Dr. Hill for you. I'm all set with enough time to analyze yet. >> Are you okay, Susan? >> Yeah. >> Great. >> Hi, everybody. My name is Jesse May Paluso. I am a previous guest on Askin for Squares. Longtime lover of Tanya and Cody. And when she asked me to come on today to get a reading, I said, "Hell yeah, you did. Put me in the alley of a mattress store and get me read." I Everyone I know is dead, so I don't know who who's going to come through. I don't know if they're going to be on all fours or not like that. My dog died or if it'll be my mom or my dad. Uh I guess I really kind of hope it's my dad because I've gotten signs of my mom as you know from the podcast that you all responded to so amazingly. But I'm open to anything. It's all a gift at this point. >> Should I sit? >> Yeah, come to sit. Hi. >> Hi. How are you? >> I'm wonderful. How are you? >> What's your name? Jesse May. >> Hi, Jess. >> Hi. >> Nice to meet you. >> Nice to meet you, too. >> Hey. And I sense a couple uh energies in your energy. I sense an older female in your energy. I also sense a younger male in your energy. Not young, but younger younger male. The female energy feels very bonded to you. Feels very loving. Very interesting woman. She feels very centered around you. Like, oh, you're her baby girl. She's telling me that you talked about a tattoo. I don't know if this is recently or previously connected to her. Do you understand that information? >> Yeah. >> Okay. She's telling me about this tattoo. Did you get the tattoo or are you thinking it? Yes. All right. And it has something important to do with her. I don't know if it's a signature or what this tattoo is, but it's connected to her. You understand that? >> She's also showing me something. I don't know if it's in her purse or her pocket, but she loves to bring it with her or you brought it with you. She's talking about something being attached to her. Did you bring something of hers with you? >> I did. You think about something today? >> Okay. >> And I was going to bring it and I put it in my pocket and then I took it out and then out in the alley I realized I kind of want it and then I put it back in my pocket right before I walked in. She knows you have it. She said that was a good decision. I thought she would. She's telling me she wasn't well. So whatever happened, she found out quickly and she left quickly. She was worried about you. She said, "You kept telling her, "I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't know how I'm going to survive. What am I going to do? I I'm scared, Mom. I'm scared." And she wanted to tell you that you don't need to be afraid that she's always there. Something happened with her stomach. And she's telling me that she couldn't eat. Um I don't know if it was what really happened had to do with bowels. Um did she have like colon cancer or something going on with her colon or bowels? her stomach flipped in the night or and colon um twisted and that's a >> very painful >> very painful and you know life or death they have to have an operation and why are her ashes like so important what did you do with her ashes they're on me now that's why all right she's recognizing that she's telling me to tell you she knows you put them in a tattoo honey or are they on you physically like a thank you. I knew they were touching your skin. I just didn't know where. I knew they weren't in your pocket. I could feel them on your skin. She's telling me that some struggles. So, there may be some coming or some change, something that you want, something that you desire, something that you're hoping will come or there's a change coming in this relationship that's quite profound. >> That makes a lot of sense. Who's Janet or Janice? That's your sister. Thank you. She's acknowledging her sister and she wants you to know her sister is here with you also. Meaning on this planet, you understand on this planet she wants you to know that she wants you close to her sister. Okay? And she wants you to spend time with her because there's something going on there that needs to be addressed. Do you understand that? Your mom just put a balloon up in the air. I want to know who just had a birthday is getting ready to have one or a special day. It will be within a couple weeks one way or the other. H. >> Do you understand that? Who is that? >> I don't I not I don't know. Not yet. >> Is your dad going to see this? >> What I do feel is this energy of parenting you or fathering you or being in your life on a continuous basis and you're not recognizing a male from the other side? >> No. >> Can you imagine a monk? Oh yeah, I forgot he died. No. No. You wouldn't forget who died. Not not this person this person fuels him for. Was there someone else you wanted to speak to? I was hoping for my dad. He's the one I felt when I was driving here. He's the one I brought up. Let's tap into your dad and see if he can't come through more. He loved you like there's no other. You were his baby girl. He's telling me that he wasn't well also and but he left rather rapidly. I don't think he knew he wasn't well or something had blocked that for him. Do you understand that information? And I see him here and I see him leaving. You understand that information? And it feels to me like he didn't get the chance to say goodbye and I love you. Also, I want to ask you about his head. There's something about his head. So, I don't know if there was a connection that shut off or he had a stroke or what happened here, but there's a mis disconnect. Do you understand that? Can you tell me what that was? He had Alzheimer's, a form, a form of dementia. So, what I see is his whole system just went very rapidly and nobody could stop it. He just went down. He wants you to know that he knew you. He knew you. And he wants you to know he could hear you. He just could didn't couldn't show that he knew. He was out of his body more than he was in his body throughout this process. I want you to understand that your father was in the afterlife, acclimating to the afterlife. He could be very difficult for your mom, but when it came to you, he was all about it. Your father likes go big or go home. So he's bringing you a hawks and owls. I want you to pay attention to the hawks and the owls because he's bringing them I know you've heard them. I know you see them. He's telling me that he brings them to you every chance he gets. Who smoked? Cuz I just smelt something of smoke come in the room. Who is the smoker? And my grandfather was a smoker. Who is the J name like a I don't know if it's Jimmy, Johnny, Jackie, something like that, please. I have a cousin, Jimmy. He's acknowledging something about your cousin. Is there a problem with your cousin that he might be acknowledging something or were they close? Very, very close. Okay. He's acknowledging him and wants you to know that he knows he's okay, that I'm good. All right. Hold on. You've either gotten a tattoo for your father or you're getting one for your father also because he's mentioning that to me and he says, "My heart, my heart." He's like, "I love you to the moon and back or something. I love you out there. It's far far away. Did he ever say that to you? >> My mom used to say all the time. >> Okay. Somebody's saying it. >> Yeah. >> You felt him. >> Yeah. >> Oh, they were all around you. >> All right. Thank you. >> You're so welcome. >> Thank you, gang. >> Thank you very much. >> Beautiful job, Susan. Thank you, Jesse. >> Thank you. >> All right, everyone. We are back in studio to do a little postmortem on our experiment. Uh we're here with Jesse, Dr. Hill and Susan Grath. Thank you so much for being here. Uh we would love to start off by before we get to the results of the experiment. Jesse, do you want to tell us what your experience was like? >> I'm a Virgo, so I love lists. I wrote a list of all the things that I missed from your connection and your reading, and it's I mean, you were so spot on. I was even talking with Megan outside about how accurate it was. And you know the one thing I want to say before I get into it is obviously this is a home where people are open to this experience and I think the most important thing is whatever it ends up meaning for someone and it means to me it validates a lot. It validated a lot for me and it was very healing. So thank you for that and sharing your energy with me and reading me. >> You're welcome. I can I've been told thank you. >> It was extremely accurate and it was so accurate that it threw off any logical thought that I had because I just was so emotionally connected to the moment. The one thing you you did the you mentioned about the trinket in my pocket that had just happened prior, the ashes that were touching my skin. Janet, she said Janet and I said what? Janet's not a common name. like no one's named Janet. It's just not a very common name and she just came out with it. And Janet, my aunt Janet is such a cornerstone in our family now. She was so close with my mom and that was to me I like that shot right to my freaking soul and I was like, "Oh my god, that is so wild." Um the baby girl thing. She called me her baby girl quite often. And then you mentioned to the moon and back. My mother and I had these mugs whenever I'd go home >> and we drink out of these mugs and I have them at my house now. This was our thing to the moon and back. So when you said that and baby girl like those were very very much connected to my mom and then you mentioned the tattoo. My mother and I had two matching tattoos. Um it the uh hummingbirds were a sign for sure. where I have hummingbirds hanging from my mother's house in my place now. >> Is that what the owl is? >> You mentioned the owl when you were speaking about my dad. You mentioned like a hawk or an owl. When my mother was in the ICU, she had started to come through too one day and she said she was just starting to speak and and I was like, "Do you know who I am? Do you know who I am?" And she said, "Who? Who? Who? You're a tree owl. you sound like a tree owl. You talked about her like being like spicy and funny like she just was cracking a joke with me. And so that's why I ended up getting an owl tattoo on my arm from that experience. But you also mentioned handwriting. My mother's handwriting is right on my arm. And you couldn't have seen that or known that. And I have a couple dragonfly tattoos that matched. Um what else did I write? The change in the life was wild because there was a big big shift happening in my life coming up. And um that was just so spot-on. And then you also mentioned this will make you laugh, Susan, cuz you were like, "No, there's a there's a day there's a special day. Your mother's showing me a balloon. My mother's birthday is coming up. So I like I missed my own mother's birthday. So maybe you should scan my brain and see what the heck she did to me." It is so normal. It's so normal. It happens to me every day. People don't they they go, "No, I don't know." In fact, I'll give someone their mother's name and they'll go, "No, I don't know who that is." And then as they're walking out, they'll go, "That's my mom's name." >> You know, and I just It's mediumship fog. >> Yeah. >> And it's kind of what I do, too, actually. So, you know, I go on this roller coaster. My brain goes into mediumship. And when I see the human side of you come out, like I see tears, I drop really fast into like the human that therapist that I am, you know, are you okay? And then I fly back up. It's really weird. So I know when you're doing it, I'm not just gone. I'm I'm paying attention and I know and I'm aware of the healing part of it. So I'm connecting in when you're getting tears, but I'm also connecting in when you're in fog. >> That's why I'll go just keep it. You It'll make sense to you later. >> Yes. in the recording, you know, I just listened and I was like this, I miss this, I miss this, I miss this. Then you also mentioned you're like I asked you asked me if there was anything else and I said I wanted to connect with my dad and you were like Jay, there's a Jay name and I went with my cousin Jimmy. My dad's name was Joseph. Totally just flew right over that one. >> I think part of my brain's probably missing at this point. >> We can we can look. >> We should look. >> I think I think I said John or Joe. >> I think you probably didn't. I was like, "No." Yeah. >> No. >> Yeah. Someone works not ringing any bells. >> So this is why this is what happens. They're so good, right? And they want you to know they're there so they're not going to screw it up. So if you say it's Jimmy, they'll go, "Okay, let's bring Jimmy through." >> Right? >> That's what will happen. And it happens to me all the time. So I'm used to that. So I just shift and go, "Okay, who are you? Who's here?" And I can feel another entity come in because now you've identified them and they go, "Okay, well I'll come through." They love to talk to us. conversation. >> So that makes sense to me that he came through. >> And then when you were talking about my dad, you're like, "Someone smells like cigarettes." And my uncle Louie always came in smelling like a pack of marble, like just a cloud around him all the time. And you were like, "This someone smells like cigarettes." I was like, >> "I thought that was my grandfather." I was like, "No, that's my my uncle Louie." It's so Italian. Cousin Jimmy, Uncle Lou, Joey. Um, it was all just so very accurate and you know, obviously we're all here cuz we have connection to the spiritual realm or believe in it and have been affected by it. So, it just was really validating and interesting to have another woman connect with that feminine power for me like my mother's feminine power. So, like you said, like you're so connected. We were so bonded. >> Yeah. >> Like, and not in a way where it's like, oh, you were the favorite daughter. She loved you more. Even my stepdad's like, you know, she loves your sister and very you she has a very close bond with your sister, but there's something about you two. >> So, tie. >> Yeah. Like, absolutely. So, I was It was just It was magical. It felt amazing. That makes me really happy because my goal is always healing and I can see it gave you some healing. >> Yeah. >> It's not about let me prove it. It's not about any of that. It's all about the healing. >> Right. >> And I and that's what makes it so worth doing. I mean without that there's nothing. It's just a showoff thing. Right. >> Right. >> Look what I can do. It's not No. But when you say what you say, you know, I go, "Oh, I did my job right." >> Yes. You know, that's why when I when there's times where somebody's so resistant, I can't connect in. Like, they're so resistant >> and they'll leave not believing and I'll just be devastated >> because I know they've left with something that they actually can connect into and feel and they and it and it didn't happen and then they'll never believe. >> That's what I feel like. They'll never believe, but spirit always tells me someone else will bring it to him. You're not the only leader in the world, which I know that, you know, but you feel that way. You feel like you let them down. So, I'm just really glad that it brought you some peace. >> Yeah, it was amazing. I It was great. I sat like a deer in headlights because I was again in the fog. So, afterwards, I had these realizations about things I connected with that I didn't realize in the moment. And, you know, I was standing there with Tanya and she were talking about the necklace with the ashes and and I forgot that I even had it engraved. I forgot that there were even words on it. and she's spinning looking at it and she's like, "Jesse, it says to the moon and back on your necklace." And I was like, "I was stuck in Susan's fog." What about that? Do you not understand? I was pulled into the mediumship. >> I do. I get a jacket or something after being in the fog or is there merch? >> I wish there is merch. >> We need some Susan mediumship fog merch. Um, what about uh Carlin? That's right. So they mentioned that you had a young male energy early on and I didn't make the correlation or connection or the possibility of a animal spirit being able to be connected through you or vice versa. And so I didn't think about my dog Haron that I had just put down who was my soul dog who I had for and had a tumor. >> Yes, he had a tumor. And you mentioned like, you know, all of that after we spoke, but you you had tapped into it early on, but when you mentioned it, I didn't think about my dog. I didn't think cuz he's just so dopey. Like I would just imagine he's just near wherever there's peanut butter. Not necessarily me in the afterlife. He's just sitting in a like an aisle in a grocery store waiting for someone to open peanut butter. I didn't think he'd like me. So when you mentioned like a fail smear, I was like, I don't know. No. And then I felt horrible. I'm like, did I forget somebody who died? I'm really going to need the doc. >> If I forgot my mom, my mom's birthday, my dad's name, who died last week. >> We all need a bigger issue than ghosts and spirit. >> But yes, it's the way it works. >> Yeah, we realize do it all the time. They they'll leave going, "No, I didn't understand half of what you said, but" and I just keep it. Keep it. And then I get these texts. Oh my god, Susan. You know, I can't believe it. I missed it. How did I miss it? And I That's what You know what? And what's really weird is I'll remember bits and pieces. I always think what's wrong with my brain >> because I I can't remember everything I say. >> Megan had to remind me on the way here, this is what you said when you were in that room because I don't remember it all. >> I'm not I don't think I'm in my self or something. And people will call me the next day and they'll go, "You know that so and so, you know that person that so and so um that you talked to?" And I'll go, "What do they look like?" And they gave me, you know, their name. I didn't know your name when you sat down. >> Yeah. >> I didn't I Oh, I didn't know if you told me or not. It's just like I'm not I'm in this space. I can't explain it. It's It's like I'm somewhere else and so I don't remember anything. So, it's so fun when I have somebody sitting in front of me telling me and then, you know, having Megan tell me, but to actually hear it from your mouth is, "Oh my god, I love this." >> Yeah. It was I mean, just hit after hit. It was like a It was like a greatest hits album. That was with the re, wasn't it, Megan? It was like a greatest hits album. It was like a Whitney Houston greatest hits album. I was like, I love this track. I know this track. >> I mean, Dr. Hill seemed great. He was just hanging out with the dog the whole time. >> You were here. >> Okay. I think it'd be a good time to move this over to the science portion of this program. >> Uh, Dr. Hill, would you like to recount, you know, your experience with the experiment? I also have printed out the brain scans that we can pass out for whenever you're ready. >> Sure. So, we did um something called a brain map or a quantitative EEG. So, as you know, we put a cap on your head and squirted it full of gel and then we had you sit still for several minutes to get baseline data. And so, the kinds of things you pick up in that type of brain map are not how you're feeling. They're kind of the traits you carry around. So the things that are always there across time and because of that these things don't usually change and people concentrating or meditating don't usually change their brain very much. People that have a a psychic or medium practice tend to create state shifts that are strong enough to see change. So that's what I was curious about if you were going to show the kinds of changes that other people have uh demonstrated on doing the similar types of things and you did. She did. >> You also did some other things though that are a little bit unique to you. >> So you have both some classic features that we tend to see as well as some unique features. And um we have some some uh some show and tell. >> There you go. >> Excited. >> So the the the top sheet is your brain at rest. That's your brain all the time. And you can see that if you look at the green uh circles at the top, that means your brain's pretty typical. Where things are green, things are pretty age matched. You know, you're like most people your age. and and people are kind of, you know, weird in some ways, average in others. So, by itself, we're just showing that those redder redder and orange areas are where you're making lots of beta waves. And that's something you tend to do yourself as a unique human thing. You carry a lot of beta waves on the front middle of the head. There's a part of the brain called the anterior singulate whose job it is to hold our thoughts in our mind and to select from the competing thoughts. Yours is really, really strong. kind of like your CEO is in micromanaging mode all the time. Think of this. Think of this. Hey, think of this. And it might be a little bit um perverative or obsessive at times. Is that something you tend to carry around? >> Mhm. >> So, I didn't do an intake. We didn't do a discussion about your brain. This is simply from looking at a feature you tend to carry around that people carry called a phenotype. And this one tends to mean we get a little bit stuck in our head sometimes, like a steel trap, but it can cramp up a little bit. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So that's a feature that you have and it tends to be one of these gifted poet brains but tends to also get a little bit anxious that kind of brilliant butt cramping up into anxiety mode when you do your practice when you're actively deeply in about 20 minutes in that feature was elevated you were more stuck more absorbed in a really intense moment of focus that's a bit unique to you seeing that that phenomena come up I've seen in people like Wimhof breathing breathing, you know, ice plunge people, they got that same increased activation when they're trying to concentrate very, very strong. So, it was that engagement aspect of your brain and that I thought was really interesting. That is not what most psychics do. The other thing that you did, if you look on the left side of the pages, you have delta waves and those are mostly green showing they're pretty typical. Look at the second page and look at the delta waves. That's the left column again. You see how first page is >> the first page is the baseline and the second page is afterwards. >> That's why you're >> and so you can see all those red and orange blobs on the left hand side those delta waves and those are what I usually see when somebody does a really intense spiritual shamanic psychic medium kind of thing is they show these very strong delta waves and to some extent it looks like your brain is in the moment between awake and asleep. >> Oh wow. And so your brain is starting to almost dissociate, starting to lose the intent, the the sense of focus. You can see there's two red blobs on either side of your head where the delta waves are strongest. The left one, which is most strong, the left pre-entral gyrus, its job is to hold our focus on things or turn our focus off so it keeps us focused when we're bored, but also able to stay asleep at night, not be pulled out of sleep because we hear something. And that left side of your brain was very asleep, suggesting your brain was not really stabilizing your attention on the moment you were in. Instead, it was being allowed to be pulled with whatever information was coming in. So, you were acutely almost checked out of the moment, stabilizing, but very, very aware of focusing your attention at the same time. So, dissociative, but concentrated at once, which is a really interesting combination. So, you know, I I thought that was a very interesting state. Yeah. Then you can see in the the fourth row all those red lines, you see how a lot of them got stronger on the front middle of the head. >> Where are we looking? >> The fourth row with all the red lines. >> Yeah. >> Coherence. >> Just every Yeah. coherence or connectivity across different brain waves. You can see the same part of the brain that lit up in beta waves. The front middle of the head is what is talking to all of the other areas of the brain everywhere. All those red lines that increased are talking to different parts of your brain. And so you can see your CEO, your project manager talking to those areas that stabilize our attention. You can also see behind the right ear, there's lots of beta waves and that's the part of the brain that drinks in the sensory world and the social world. So your brain was like grabbing somehow outside world information and trying to take it in really deeply. If you see this pattern at rest, sometimes it means people are being flooded with sensory and social people that can't handle sensory information or for whom social stuff is really really intense. So that feature can show up with really strong social anxiety or you know a lot of really intense social fear. And for you it was the combination of concentration, social awareness and then on the edge of actually not being present all at the same time. >> Wow. >> How is that possible? You'll have to tell me. I'm just looking at phenomena. So, >> it's the fog. >> But you also described something a moment ago. You described that you weren't completely present. You weren't pick up all the information. You didn't remember all of the information that you were saying. >> Yeah. >> And with this strong delta waves, you were on the edge of sleep. You were not processing everything you were saying. I didn't bring a page, but I also looked at how fast your brain is. And your brain sped up in speed by a little bit as well. went from like a normal speed up to above average speed by a little bit as it started to run the the the cylinders. So, you were not like checking out, falling asleep, dissociating just like other psychics I've seen when Tyler was sweating and moving the whole time. I have a pet psychic who's, you know, looking at things and talking and people look like they're starting to fall asleep during that process of being both really intensely awake but also somehow slightly dissociative. So, I'm not sure what's happening, but I You seem to be presenting the same type of features we see when somebody's doing something like this. >> Wow. >> So, Whoa. >> So, she wasn't there. She was there, but not there. >> There, but not there. Yeah. >> I think another thing that's really interesting is that you were present, but you were you were present, but not present. Is that how you describe it? And focused, but not focused. >> Yeah. I mean, had I looked at that brain map, the second one, um, as if it was the the judgment, I would have assumed you were super super super ADHD, like like really spacey, really checked out, maybe um, falling asleep, maybe unconscious, maybe, you know, having an associative event or a mild seizure. And you weren't your EEG was clean. It wasn't having seizures, but it was like drifts of sleepiness were taking over. >> Was the cap on me? That's how you felt. That >> describes what I felt. >> No. So, so we saw this drifting focus as if you were falling asleep while you were, you know, making eye contact and talking and staying very present. So, >> yeah, that's what it feels like. It feels like I'm not in my body. >> So, it's kind of a dreamlike state. Yeah. >> Yeah. But then when, like I was telling you before, when she started to get emotional, I felt myself going back into my human part, you know, my therapeutic part and saying, you know, are you okay? >> You know, and and wanting to make sure that the information I'm delivering is not causing harm >> because it can, you know, you have to be really careful what you deliver. Even though we hear it, doesn't mean it's always the right way to say it. Mhm. >> Um, so but in just layman's terms, >> is my brain wild? I mean, what is what >> Yeah. Yeah. You have one of those, it's a it's a brain I call the the tortured poet or the gifted poet, depending how it's operating for you, where you're really aware. Um, all the patterns get in, but you kind of have to have all the thoughts. like you don't have any op any option of like having a quiet mind or >> not making all the associations and your brain tends to go squirrel and get pulled by information. So, you know, >> yeah, >> for you that's being pulled, you know, most people get get distracted by like the clock or the traffic. You're being distracted by things that no one else can see. Apparently, >> Uncle Steve, you don't get distracted. I just love cuz uh when we asked Susan to do this, she was, you know, really nervous cuz as we were talking about with Tyler Henry, how he has like a thing that he does and she's kind of just always tapped in. So, it's it's just really amazing to see like, you know, we we'll actually we'll put this on the screen so people will be able to see this, but it's really cool to see how much your brain changes from from a normal state into a channeling state. And I mean, this has What does this mean to you? Like, is this does this feel anything? No, I watched the Tyler Henry one and he was all red and so I go, if I don't have all red lit up, I'm I'm bad. It's bad. You know, that's what my head was saying. So now I feel a little confused, but I'm a detail person. And so I was listening carefully cuz I am a detail person, but I always want to take it a step beyond. So you're right. I always want to go, what what does that mean exactly? What what are you telling me? >> Um, >> but yeah, I was nervous. So the reason I was nervous was because I knew that I'm in this state a lot and I can pop in in and out of it anytime I choose >> and sometime well not out of it I can pop into it anytime I choose. I can't pop out of it easily. It's the dial doesn't go down very easily. So I was worried that you wouldn't see a difference. So that's what hence singing the prayer in my head and trying to be and I'm a very actual I'm actually a very relaxed person. I'm not hyper at all and I, you know, everything I do is very um can be very methodical, but it's the opposite of that for me in mediumship. But I'm actually not a person who carries detail. >> Mhm. >> I I have trouble even holding on to detail. You could tell me your name 15 times and I'm somewhere else. And I don't know how to describe that. And I'll say, I know I heard them. I I know I it went in and I know that I the thought was there and I I I repeated the name in my head yet I then drift out into this other and it's not I'm not you're right I'm not dissociating I'm very present in the moment. >> Um but my words start to become more difficult to speak. I find I can't grab them the way I want to because I feel myself floating into this other realm that I'm hearing things. I'm not hearing voices. It's different. I know I'm hearing them. I I haven't It's clare cognizance. I I don't use the other Claire's. It's not efficient for me. Like clairvoyance is clear seeing. Clare cognizance is clear knowing. Um I feel clear audient. I feel so I could feel your mom's stomach. >> That's one thing I remember because I I was telling Megan I my stomach was twisting. It was hurting. >> Um so I feel but it's more of a cognizant reaction. And I'm cognizant that they are talking to me and what they want to say. >> It doesn't even drop into me. It's just there. And I don't know how to describe that except for to say it that way, which I find very bizarre because there's no description for it. It's just there. It's like, oh, you want information. Oh, you want to know about your it just it's there. I'm not looking for it. Now, I tried to stop it at in the thing. I was trying to control it. Um, but I don't, it's so hard to describe. It's not like I say it's just a conversation, but I'm not hearing anything. I just know I'm hearing it, if that makes sense. I know what it what it is. >> Does that make sense? >> It's a clear knowing. >> Yeah, but how is that possible if you're not hearing anything? >> Are you getting any of that, Dr. Hill? Well, I mean, we see in your in your EEG that you're picking up what I would cons what I would usually interpret as an awareness of the outside world, the sensory world and the social world. Um, and so it looks like you're more activated in that way, drinking in more information. That can, you know, the kind of brain patterns we saw only when you were in the middle of your practice look like the brain patterns of someone at rest who cannot filter out the background world and things are too loud, too bright, social stuff's too intense, their empathy is set all the way open. you you went into that mode, that sort of really raw social, sensory, emotional mode that I would often consider is in the way for somebody, but you only did it acutely during uh your practice. At rest, you weren't showing that. You were showing these sort of hyperfocus, almost obsessive things, and that may be why you're always in that mode a little bit. We're seeing the trait, but I again, brain mapping or QBEG is not very good at picking up state shifts. It's only really picking up traits, gross stable features that exist across many, many minutes. We saw those similar ones in both conditions, but we saw an acute state shift. And that's what's interesting to me is you were able to take your brain and put it into a different mode. And that's not a very common thing to do. I've worked with, you know, Tibetan meditators and all kinds of people that have deep, deep experience changing their brain. And only about one out of 10 or 20 can actually do something where they change their brain in real time. Even people that are like, "I've been meditating for 50 years. I'm a monk. I live in a, you know, on a mountaintop." About half the time you don't see much when they try to meditate. >> Wow. >> That's baffling. >> And and yours was like that instant turned on and we caught you a couple different versions of it over uh we had the cap on for a long time. So we we got to do several recordings. So yeah, >> that's amazing. There's some scientific stuff pointing towards uh you know it's like information being available like quantum computing finding that their information might be like stored in the finest like particle. Is this true? Am I making [ __ ] up? >> There's a theory called uh orchestra uh orchestrated objective reduction I believe or >> sitting in your head that whole word. I know. I know. >> And the idea is that the microtubules inside of neurons may have quantum properties and consciousness might be the awareness of potential dropping into reality. Like the collapse of the quantum wave into Newtonian physics might be something we're aware of and that's >> uh orchestrating basically the mind is sort of observing reality coming into being somehow and it has a quality where it knows if things have become real. And that seems to be consciousness is that moment of potential collapsing into you know from probability into reality essentially that's >> the the quantum potential collapsing >> and and these microtubules and like this that phenomenon itself is what's >> sorry we're passing a dog >> it's what's led us to believe that consciousness is external. So that's why when I hear about the this disassociation, that's really interesting to me because you hear anyone that talks about having a transcendental experience, they talk about the ego death >> and that this self dying, you know, and having this death of the self allows them to connect to this consciousness and have a samadei experience or an experience of oneness. So when you're outlining, you know, that she's focused, unfocused, disassociated, but social, it checks all the boxes to essentially connecting with a source consciousness that is external. You know, it's one of those things where some of this is pointing towards it's not necessarily, maybe it is, maybe correct me, Susan, if it's not arising from within you. It's you're connecting to, you know, the all that is. >> It's not within me, >> right? And it's and it's very beautiful. And that's why when we meet someone that does your work, like we look for humility, you know, I mean, cuz it's very humbling. And anyone that that is practicing uh practicing this art or skill, you know, it understands it's not them. And you know, it's if anything, it's the it's the absence of them. >> Exactly. What a perfect I'm sorry. >> I didn't mean to snort. >> Is the dog. >> It's a dog. >> I don't know how Dr. Hill got robbed of this dog. You really said you're supposed to be hold it the whole time. >> I didn't mean to start so >> it is the absence of the human brain. I don't know how else to say that. >> That actually Yeah, >> it it feels like I'm not in my brain. It feels like I'm in my soul and through my soul is that vine that's connecting information and and because I have to have linguistics I think it travels into my brain which is confusing to people when they learning mediumship is why I teach it because it's very confusing because you have to have the linguistics and that's coming from the brain and so it's traveling through that soul source going into your brain for those linguistics and then what do you do with The goal is to travel it back into the soul source so that you can verify the information. So as I'm and that happens automatically for me. I don't know why. Maybe because I've been doing it so long. Um but so when I'm giving you information, it's coming in through my soul. The love is what brings them. Your love is what brings them. That's what they're interested in. They're not watching everything we're doing. They don't care. They're interested in the love >> and and letting you know they're there. So when that comes through my soul, I send it. It it automatically goes to my brain for those linguistics and then it drops kind of it stays there. The the linguistics stay there for just and this is all like in a heartbeat it happens and then it goes back into my soul for verification. So I'll so I'll feel like okay I heard it twice. Boom. It's out of my mouth. So if I don't hear it I don't even hear it. I feel it. God I don't know how to describe it. When I hear Susan talk about that she cannot really remember the state, I think that's an interesting phenomenon because we all know it's kind of hard to remember your dreams. Even if it's a really profound dream, you know, it's often very ephemeral. It's slippery. Dr. Hill, are you seeing anything around her memory or anything in her uh medium state of consciousness, her brain that uh is akin to the dream state? Well, we see lots of delta waves surging when you're doing your medium thing. And delta is not a brain wave we think in. It's really one we live in. It's used to keep the heart and lungs moving. Uh deep dreamless sleep when you're causing that deep restorative body thing happening. That's a delta state. Um and then we see alpha waves which are used to encode time basically slowing down and that can make it hard to pull information out into the conscious mind. Like a very non-altered state issue when alpha waves are slowing down is word finding issues. Tip of the tongue, hunting for names, hunting for words. You were showing a acceleration or accentuation of that phenomena where your alpha waves would spread out in time suggesting it might be a little hard to grab information between different parts of your brain. Um, at the same time, we were seeing all that delta. So, it was sort of this like almost non-concious state taking over. Yeah. >> Wow. I you know really if all parties are open uh Dr. Hill I have two questions I want to ask you. Uh the first one is do you have any questions for Susan? >> Um I've gotten a lot of my my questions answered. I'm mostly curious about how what Susan's experience is during this because you know that's mostly my my perspective is trying to understand the phenomena that we're seeing in the data. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think that well first of all when I came in you were very relaxing. >> Well that's good. >> And I saw a gentleman standing next to you. >> Okay. >> And I felt like that energy was supporting you. That was the feeling I had like this gentleman supporting you. So this is someone who could be a guide but it was someone who was supporting you. And I felt it really strong. And so I felt very calm um between the two of you. And you brought in this feeling of um excitement but peace. I felt excited when I was before I came in. I was really nervous. So, you know, to feel that excitement and yet you brought in this peace feeling which I loved and there was no pressure. So, that experience was really great because I didn't feel any pressure at all coming from you whatsoever. In fact, I felt very relaxed. And I remember trying to tell you that there was a gentleman next to you and you go, I don't know any any males that have crossed. And I thought, okay, well, I know they're there. U maybe it wasn't time for me to say it, you know, because there's right times and wrong times. Um, but as far as the experience when I was in it, um, you know, it's interesting when you say to me that I, you know, I'm working this all the time cuz I'm like, is that enough? That would be my question. If I were to ask you anything, was it enough? I mean, when you see other mediums doing this, was it enough to show I want people to understand it so badly >> and it's so hard to express verbally, >> if it helps at all. We don't understand what we're looking at in a brain even when it's not an extraordinary thing. >> So, a lot of the brain work we do is phenomenological. Like we can see ADHD or anxiety or trauma or fatigue or irritability of sounds or we don't know why. It's hard to interpret. People are weird. Lots of phenomena jump out. So we caught phenomena. We caught a big state shift. And to me that's the exciting part. Like we'll never know why. I mean I I at least it's not my role to know why. I can't know why from this tool set. Instead we're we're exploring landscape. We're shining a spotlight where we might have dropped the keys and well, we saw something there. Cool. So, it ends up being this sort of, you know, data point for me more than truly an answer. But >> did you see trauma in my brain? >> We um in your EEG, we do see features where your brain looks like it is scanning the outside world and evaluating for danger. And that goes up when you're in your state, but it's there all the time. I would guess you tend to carry a fair amount of uh threat sensitivity and rumination, little social anxiety or social sensitization where you're sort of, you know, aware of the social environment maybe a little too intensely at times. Like it's hard not to, you know, notice that person over there is having a bad day and that person over there who's got an uncomfortable stomach and Yeah. >> Welcome to being a woman. >> Well, and being a medium, that's the devil's talking. you got to double down on that. >> So, so I did see that sensitivity, but whether or not it's acquired or built in, whether it's a gift or, you know, a challenge, I can't tell looking at a map, I can only tell unusual it is and say, you know, this often means, usually means, can mean, and if it dovetales with someone's experience, well, then great. We we sort of understand more. >> Thank you to each of you so much for being here and doing what you do. you are just really magical humans and we're lucky to have you in our lives and have you back on the show and I know our audience is going to love this and they're going to love meeting Beiju which is great. Um is I know this dog. Um is there any parting words that anybody would like to say as we come to an end? >> I just want to thank you for sharing this space with me. I'm choosing me because there's so many amazing, beautiful mediums out there and to have you chosen to do this was really special. >> It's our honor. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. All All of you. All of you. It's I said it as we walked in, but it's a sounds like a the setup of a bad joke. A comedian, a medium, and a neuroscientist walk into a >> I know >> podcast studio. >> Uh but it's amazing. Like truly, you're all you're all wizards and you're merging the worlds. Dr. Hill, thank you for your openmindedness. >> Of course, I didn't have to do much. I just recorded data. You guys did all the vulnerable stuff. I mean, that's a pretty intense environment for some people, >> not just for you doing the work, but for you receiving the reading, you know, it can be. So, thanks for letting me peer with science at the process. And >> thank you for doing it. >> Of course. >> And all this information is just amazing to me. >> And special thanks to Jesse May. Jesse, you have you have dedicated your life after you losing your loved ones to helping people heal grief and trauma and connect to death and you know that's one of the we love you anyways but you know the the self-sacrifice you've made and the willingness to transform yourself for the good of others has been inspiring. So thank you for just you know taking another step in that direction with us as you you know in this experiment. Yeah. So, thank you. >> You're welcome. I appreciate you saying that. >> Yeah, of course, sister. >> Thank you for letting me peek into your world. >> Thank you. I'm beyond grateful >> for you. >> And we have to say thanks to Megan and Manny back there. Thank you both so much. >> Thank you. >> Couldn't have done this without you, too. Okay, gang. So, uh, does anybody want to just take a moment to just share how people can find you? Plug anything you got to plug, Dr. Hill? >> Yeah. Come check us out at Peak Brain. We have offices in New York City, in Los Angeles, St. Louis, Stockholm, London, West Palm Beach, or we work fully virtually so people can look at their brains and work with our brain coaches all over the world. So, come check us out. >> Amazing. Jesse Way, >> you can listen to my podcast, Dying Laughing with Jesse May, wherever you get podcasts, and come see me live, jessem.com, for tickets. And however you support me, a portion of that goes towards Hilarity for Charity and the Alzheimer's Association of SoCal. Both are amazing charities raising funds for families that are struggling and drowning with a horrible disease. But >> I think that there is always light in those dark moments. So, however you support me a little bit goes back to them. >> Thanks. >> Once again, way to take your pain and turn it into love for other people. Beautiful. >> She's an alchemist. >> Yeah. >> Susan, >> um, Infinite Soul Sanctuary at infinite souls sanctuary.com. I go in and I teach. Uh it's uh it's for people who can't, you know, afford uh an expensive teacher and I go in a couple times a month and teach. Um Susan GR official all social media susra.com. Um oh my books. So I have one book out called Infinite Life Infinite Lessons and I had two more coming. I wrote them at the same time. Here there we go with the um wrote them at the same time. Um and they'll be coming out hopefully in the next year. So >> and Dr. Hill, you have a book coming out. >> It's called The Gifted and the Tortured Poet, talking about how our brains can produce different aspects of neurode divergence that, you know, might cramp up into things we call ADHD or trauma or autism, but there's this sort of commonality in the sort of aware but slightly raw brain that leads to this gifted but difficult way to be. So, I want to teach people how to think about this particular, you know, brain version. So, >> I think any medium >> that wants to get their brain tested needs to go to you. >> Yeah, for sure. >> I just want to say that because I was so calm and so comfortable and so comforted. And so, if you're a medium out there, go go see Dr. Hill. >> Come see us. >> Yeah. And honestly, everyone should get their brain tested by Dr. Hill. Uh, you know, outside of who he is and how he does it. I mean, he was fundamental to helping me on my journey, my healing journey. And a lot of people we talk about, you know, plant medicine is some far out [ __ ] but this is a like it's a safe, affordable, effective way to not only measure your brain, but change your brain through neuro feedback. And you know, uh I once had a great coach who said, "If you don't measure it, you can't change it." So, you know, it's very effective and important to, you know, to see where you're at. Um all right, gang. All right, T. Did I take us out or you want to do this? We're sharing a mic. >> It's really hard to have that mic. >> Okay, come here, babe. All right. All right. Uh gang, we love you all. Thank you for hanging with us. This has been the first of many experiments, and we can't with with our dear friends. Uh and there'll be many more where these came from. Uh merging the world of science and spirit, one podcast at a time. Uh you know what to do. Follow us, like, subscribe, comment, send this [ __ ] to your mother. She misses you. You know, let her know how you're doing. Uh and that's it. We love you all. Take care of each other. And until next time, bye-bye now.