🎙️ NeuroNoodle Neurofeedback Q&A - Live with Experts! 🧠 | Jan 8 @ 6 PM CST

and refix it exactly where where are you uh where you out of I live in South Carolina the Ridgeland I don't know if you're familiar with Hilton Head Island and Bluffton area yeah cl to that cool yeah where are you at Dr Hill oh sorry um I'm in la oh gez how's it going over there yeah uh a couple miles north of here it's not so great but I'm okay are you still marked safe yeah I'm still marked safe you check the door knob before you leave it's not quite that bad but the sky is kind of kind of black oh yeah so air quality isn't the air quality is not great and I'm I'm the the mandatory evacuation line is at this point literally about two miles away so so you got to keep a close eye on it yeah I I I think I'll be fine tonight but uh yeah yeah so all right we're asking people for question and in the news besides the fires what uh do Dr Hill what have you what's been happening on your Monday show tell everybody about your uh your Monday Q&A yeah I do a Monday live stream called nura feedback in chill where I do a setup of myself and talk about uh the basics of some Nur feedback principles and the software eager to use and it's pretty easy to explain what's happening eag straight forward and then I go over some bioh topics healthy habits anded that are not to uh take control of your resources um so that's what I've been doing for a while I think I might shift that into a newset because I'm running out running out of Articles to write healthy habit topics about so I have to like think of something else where the content talking about gpt's wonderful what's that gpt's wonderful at writing article come on yeah but coming up with like here's an important thing you should think about you know I've got like 20 of those now and I'm starting to run a little little shy on the important things what the what are the top three things that we should be thinking about from not not from a neuro feedback perspective but a brain regulation perspective those would include things like um circadian rhythm timing by fasting before bed getting up consistently early and gentle exercise before caffeine it's about the number one thing you can do to support biohacking outside of a neuro feedback and to dovetail with your neuro feedback is to hack your sleep so you know that it's becoming efficient and you can control some of the Circadian Q stuff you know some of the outside signals coming in how how do you hack your sleep that sounds so cool well the biggest CE cue is when we eat that's the number one thing the body listens for uh Stronger Than Light stronger than when we sleep so eat in the time zone you want to want to live in and you can you can play tricks with that you can adjust your eating toward a time zone if you're going to travel and you can approximate it an hour a day and you can absorb at least one hour the human brain can absorb one hour of circadian uh slop per day basically pretty easily so uh when you eat is the most important is that kind of like eat around sunset or not after dark what's the guid I think it's really more about giving yourself 2 three hours of blood sugar dropping so you can have a growth hormone release after you fall asleep as circadian event and the the pattern of eating will create a circadian hormone uh regulation insulin cortisol Etc dayto day so if you eat in a pattern you start creating that pattern in a hormone regulation way so I don't think it matters if you're eating late if you're staying up until 3:00 am and that's your normal uh break time but my my second rule for biohacking sleep is get up early because the only light that really matters is oh sorry Mari the only light really matters is Morning Light the uh the the color of light in the air that's above um Beyond one hour is doesn't have that that sort of circadian entrainment quality so you have to get a little bit of ambient light in the first hour after Sunrise so go to bed fasted get up early and then third go for a walk burn off the cortisol burn off the blood sugar that woke you up and that's another sadian cue is to drain that activation without calling for more don't sit in the couch and eat sugar you know do some yoga and that creates the other half of that circadian seesaw uh that was started at the beginning of the night so but Dr Hill why is it after eat a pizza and a case of beer I feel sleepy ah blood sugar drop yeah big one Cara they call it well it's also think about why you want to eat a pizza at the end of the night it's because we have a a circadian event so through the end of the day the Melatonin starts Rising melatonin suppresses pancreatic in release 100% so you have this sudden crash of pancreatic insulin release this like trickle that happens um and then the blood sugar start the blood insulin starts to respond the same way and a falling insulin signal is assigned to snack if you got insulin to release you might as well you know shove more calories into storage so that it's that it's that swing that that's why we want to snack at the end of the day when our stomach's empty it's that insulin availability sort of phenomena hey everybody we have Diane C so did I say it right that time yes D Murray swingle auor of V mindes Anthony Ramos uh we have uh a mom on a mission Diane Costo Diane you you've been on the show before could you give everybody uh a little bit on your on your background and uh tell us how you hurt your elbows there oh geeez I don't want to get into that it'll take more than a a couple hours but oh we got to fill some time Diane tell tell the big thing I want to get to is you you and Dr Hill have a lot in common because you both do a lot of your business on remote and we love to hear your your your experiences on that but Mom on a mission what does that mean well it meant that uh about I guess it's going to be 15 years now I'm thinking like 14 15 years ago I first was exposed to neuro feedback and that was because I was searching for an answer to help my son um since he was like five years old got kicked out of every different school and program that I put him in and um by this point he was out of options he was in a school for troubled teens he was 12 years old going on 13 and they were about to kick him out of that school I mean we literally tried like private school home school boarding school home school Military Academy anything I could think of every different parenting style every different environment for him and there he still was he was just impulsive he' get up and leave or punch a hole in the wall or just refuse things you never knew what he was going to do um so when he ran out of options at this point and the owner of this program calls me and says what are we gonna do I was like you've got to be kidding me you're the professional right um and right at that time somebody introduced me to the concept of neuro feedback and to a chiropractor who was just getting into the field trying to make it easier for people to incorporate neuro feedback into their practices and I started reading about it and I'm like that makes sense to me there's got to be something going on in his brain right so I went through that training and drove across the country from South Carolina to Utah and set up a neuro feedback you know program in that school for trouble teens and it literally saved his life and I saw Improvement and multiple students and staff there just kind of literally blew my mind you know I was like why didn't anybody mention this all of these years prior to this um and that just launched me into the field of either teaching people how to provide neural feedback or opening offices or providing it remote anything I could do to get the word out there since then yeah and and you opened you had more than one office for a while and now you got to remote how how did it start where now you're in the business of showing people how to do the practice but how did it evolve into that yeah it started with that school and there I was across the country and setting up this program within this facility and I stayed there for five months I lived there but then I had to come back home and I had other family members to deal with and so I learned that I could train somebody to do some of the Hands-On part and I could supervise from a distance and then I ended up in another location for another reason to help my other son and I I just decided I've got to put a roof over my head and get us out of the debt that we're in from all of the stuff that I tried for my youngest and so I was like well let me set up a couple Offices here in Massachusetts I was in the Boston area so I just would find a location and maybe find a a professional in the area to kind of collaborate with and would announce it to their client base and I'd do a presentation and explain it and would have a handful of clients in that office and I just continued to do that in about a dozen different locations probably six or seven offices at one time and then I um then I started gradually closing them and focusing on helping professionals do that instead of me being the one to do it so now I'll only do remote sessions for families that don't have someone near them um until I have enough of my own you know providers that I can just Channel them through them and then how was it getting the remote started Dr Hill how did you start it on the remote it was just more efficient well it's demand I mean when you do podcast you guys probably all experiened this but when you do podcast people call you from all over the world like hey uh uh please can I have some Nur feedback and Diane I'm I you you you didn't say this specifically but I have a hunch that part of your story is and then every week somebody started asking me if I could help support them do more neur feedback with other populations because that's the thing that happens every single week someone's like oh would you open a peak brain here would you can can you help me learn to do neur feedback and so that is a recurrent ask it's it's almost as sort of an unmet need the same way that need for neuro feedback Services themselves are is there's this other population of like people starving to know how to do it to do it better to do it more systematically so I I I I your your your path seems familiar so thanks yeah and that's my main focus right now is to help more providers provide so I have the training the support the systems in place to help them do that because that's what happened I everywhere I went I was like they need they need a provider here they need a provider there or somebody would say hey would you provide here and I'm like okay do it what do you think the number one obstacle is to the to these providers that need help them get over the the first hurdle like what's holding them back organization not the first hurdle Pete it's the ongoing you know I mean everyone here professional in the field how long did it take you to get good at developing protocols off of data and off of complaints and off of goals I mean how long did it take you to go to a comfort level of like someone's walking in with a bunch of stuff to work on here's a bunch of data and histories and you kind of have some idea what to do that's a pretty big gap for a lot of people I think that is not a oneoff it's a you know like like Diane does there's training there's supervision there's support the software it's a whole infrastructure that has to get created to manage the the practice and you end up teaching therapists how to be coaches because you know yes there's a therapy inlock here with neur feedback but like technically functionally practically mechanically what we do is coaching it's iterative it is goal chasing it doesn't necessarily know discret truth all the time it's trying to chase phenomena and experiences and then uses data iteratively and interventions between that that's coaching you know it's not creating clinical containers the same way necessarily it can again not to say you exclude therapy but that clinical container transference all that stuff is not necessary for neuro feedback it works on cats cats are bad at transference well maybe not but like it has this phenomena where you don't have to be a cognitive or emotional participant in the process of neur feedback for it to work therefore it's not therapy it's sort of my biggest you know thought it's mechanical it's it's brain training it's coaching when done thinking about whole people and their Nuance goals and everything else but I I think that's the hard part is that you have to teach people to think about and no offense to therapists and even psychologists but there are some there's a certain uh segment of the psychological profession that is doing high level psychological therapy work and doesn't understand anything about the brain and this is opposite that so you know this is we have to know the brain first Mari I think you're you're muted I think she's muted if she's trying to talk Dr swingle sign language oh no doing a little sign language semaphor you could do interpretive dance well camera stand hello can you hear S I just I just want to jump in because I think this is probably one of the most important conversations in terms of um you know who we are on the discipline I I want to play with percentages here so and what what Andrew was saying beforehand in terms of you know you don't need to be a therapist I would say that that's true in X percent yeah most of the time not for every population every goal absolutely right yeah yeah um and then conversely you know same thing you have extremely well trained um you know therapists psychologists um Etc who know nothing about the brain so that's that negative polarization I think you need a little bit of both but all we're debating is the percentage and the population that you're qualified to work with based on that percentage can can we jump in on here because I I think this is one of the major major confusions and key Battle Points that doesn't need to be a battle point in fact it shouldn't be a battle point it's just respecting the population and the needs of the people that you're working with um and your uh limitations as well as your fabulous skill set um and I I think it's so important to hand that home like there's certain people you shouldn't be working with if you don't have a psychologic iCal background equally there are certain people or Devil's Advocate you not devil 100% work with folks all the time who have deep psychological trauma and crisis inactive in real time and I'm working with their psychiatrist and their psychologist as part of a team and I've got Decades of experience with a cute Psychiatric so I can be additive but I'm not trying to be a treatment provider in that role I'm helping the psychiatrist look at brain masth for medication selection helping the psychologist yeah uh you know decide when we do attachment work in the brain in the brain training so the the psychologist work their EMDR whatever can land better so I would I would just say no that isn't actually necessarily true if you're a Sole Provider neuro feedback person who's not a therapist you should not be working with suicidal adiation thought disorders access to Major you know disregulated by a borderline that stuff is dangerous to work with clinically and you're not a clinician MH but doesn't mean you can't work with it if there's a clinician who's holding that container Bingo yeah so we're saying I had to say because I work with all kinds of brains and the thing that I do is play a little ieto here it's not about the diagnostic labels and the percentages and what I can and can't help it's like is there a brain resource this person can understand can we demystify this can we flip this a little bit can we give you agency by teaching you how your brain works that is valuable even if you're not then deciding you're the Arbiter of the next step in there brain Evolution like you can still teach people value with the tools even if you're not necessarily in that you know treatment role so anyways you know what I'm wondering regarding extreme cases and and Pete if we need to change topics you you go ahead but uh I sent a couple people an email the uh the healthc care assassin had recently been on an iasa trip yeah Hawaii is as I understand it who is this the Luigi mangion who shot okay and so I kind of wanted to talk about this anyway but that maybe that's an example well I suppose that's an example where the EEG could inform the psych the therapist or the counselor whoever's providing this psychedelic treatment but as far as like things going disastrously wrong maybe maybe that was responsible uh just wanted to throw that out there just the yeah well plasticity is not me you have a thought disorder bipolar you shouldn't be doing dissocia or psychedelics ketamine and and other in psychadelics are not are not a good idea you don't need more plasticity if you're in that mode but do we even know what his you know perspective was we know he was argument I've heard and there's you know may you know nature classified as you know bipolar it's schizophrenic or oh I haven't heard of a diagnosis I just heard I read that after his I trip in Hawaii he became increasingly erratic and I just thought the I guess the example would be like um someone who doesn't know about the brain who maybe knows about some of the consequences of some of these substances or how they could affect I don't know epileptic discharge and bipolar and schizophrenia uh you know because I I don't know that everyone providing these Services is knows about the brain is kind of what I was getting at well and that happens just with like marijuana use the onset of psychotic EP so is huge in our college kids that just go off to school and smoke weed for the first time like and people don't pay attention to that but there's no regulation with that anymore either barely yeah yeah it's similar well like anything you know we have you need a certain knowledge to wield tools okay and you know these are tools and if you're they're other drugs or they tools and if you're going to claim that they are a therapeutic tool well you better know how to wield it it's as simple and and boy you're going to have to watch me today I'm on a negative bent I think a lot of people getting into this field thinking this is cool and the and the latest uh Trend you youve got to be really careful I mean this could potentially be dangerous and Diane thank you for bringing up the marijuana um I don't I'm not sure the exact age of everybody on this panel but I think most of us are older enough to know yeah um that the the marijuana that's out there now is not your grandmother's marijuana I mean it's so much stronger and it's no coincidence that we're seeing many more instances of um psychosis due to marijuana than we ever did in history um but it has this Legacy of safeness due to what it used to be um and I can throw out numbers I would say in the beginning of my career we saw one every five years and we're like whoa what is this and it took a long time to figure out it was induced by marijuana and now somebody walks in and go o poop or can I say the SW word here we go again you know how you can't say on the show I'm sure yeah you know so it's just it saddens me especially now that there's more and more legalization that there's not essentially a warning label on it not that that adolescence would listen to it but same thing you know I a hard time sorry well if you give me the pause if you're going to Market something called digital marij and use neuro feedback how would you do that come on in for Alpha training yeah but in difference though I mean it that this is what you know maybe that's a let's let's have some fun a little bit in here everybody thinks of Al the relaxation wave and anybody on this panel knows that whoa talk about a mislabeling right yeah I mean it does everything so so maybe we just kind of should float with that for people who know what they're talking about on the discipline like the advertisement has nothing to do with how we're wielding it and why we're wielding it right you one of the pie about marijuana is that we haven't had Research into it because of the stigma and prohibition so even though there is this sort of disregulation deregulation thing happening it will result in a lot more research over the you know next decade or two and so we will know a lot more about it uh what you know I I talk to people a lot who who do neur feedback about cannabis and I always warn them that hey look you know doing this beta and SMR training is very likely going to reduce your tolerance dramatically and low tolerance is great for moderation so if you're you know now if now is the time to moderate now is the time to moderate because you're going to have this walking down of Tolerance and it gives people agency again to you know without necessarily the stigma and with cannabis that's fairly easy with alcohol it's fairly easy because they're social drugs and so baring gross disregulation you can gently teach people about these things so I've actually heard that about alcohol and neuro feedback has anyone experienced like a a a renewal of their tolerance or so a friend tells me that they they can't drink anywhere near as much since they began NE feedback and I'm wondering if they just now have sort of reset their uh their dependency or their tolerance to alcohol to where it was when you know before they had become a drink it can happen it's not not not that common I don't think it's really common cannabis this is a a fantastic qu question Anthony I I don't know but the immediate thing that comes to mind is we know that Neurotherapy potentiates Pharmaceuticals so you have people coming in on XYZ prescribed by their their doctor and it becomes too strong really quickly um but but cool let let's come back and find the answer to that one I've done a lot of work in working in clinics with alcohol with neuro feedback an awful lot of work with that population and there's not a categorical effect with alcoholic or disregulated substance use with alcohol people there's not a categoric effect in terms of what the Nerf effect does to the alcohol use and I've worked in centers that have moderation tracks and allow continued use so like I've seen what you know both sides of it what does happen is you reregulate their ability to turn their mind off it will to relax it will to fall asleep it will in six or eight weeks with a mix of alphaa and SMR and their reason for drinking starts to drop away the drivers have anxiety and can't fall asleep and not comfortable with their own emotions and sensory stuff and and unresolved trauma that starts to regulate and the behavior backs out people that are trying to moderate they find it much easier and every so often you get somebody who gets potentiation from alcohol or caffeine that can happen too it's not that common for caffeine either or sugar I've had folks suddenly be unable to eat sugar after doing much Nerf feedback who had problems with being addicted to sugar and they lose the taste for it it tastes disgusting they spit it out but that's not not that common you know I like your first comment there though Andro in terms of you know if you're going for a numbing effect but there's nothing to numb then you get drunk so you don't eat as much first you numb and then you feel your alcohol if you don't need to feel numb then you feel your alcohol well this maybe we should J this a little bit tomorrow too because I mean he talks about how you know when we consume alcohol it reveals what's really going on in the frontal loes you know in terms of how it magnifies whatever Baseline emotionality we have so there could be something neat there are you saying it gets rid of in inhibitions sorry alcohol inhibitions does that does alcohol have anything to do with that [Laughter] no sometimes no but so OIC is widely reported to do this I um I just read something the other day it's like uh my I OIC has had a n a nice side effect for me if I drink a lot less and my husband wants me to stop taking it because it's making him and his friends uncomfortable a recent studies showing that OIC or some of these GP uh analoges um have some impact on Louis body Dementia or some other Parkinson's progression there was some recent paper yeah I don't know if it was Louis body I'll look it up yeah I mean that's that's you know because gation is a big driver for brain related aging dementia LBD Parkinson there's a gation phenomenon that tends to drive progression and so if we're already seeing even in a few months really of deep use of these drugs if we're already seeing anti-aging effects for progression of age related diseases there's a very significant uh brain-based Metabolic Effect we're getting too and I don't know what what ways people using these drugs will have interactions with the work that we're doing but it they must you know we we do get effects so yeah there's a there's a study or a headline at least it's like a 70% reduced risk of dementia on OIC and one of the doctors says this is easily better than any dementia drug we have wow yeah now we would have to read that and you how long has OIC been around folks year 18 years yeah oh really that long it was a approved for use in diabetics in ' 06 so it's had you know probably hundreds of thousands of people use it at this point um but if you reduce your diabetes if you if you regulate your insulin that is the danger of dementia think we're confounding uh a few things here are you getting at the um the theory that dementia is brought in brought on by insulin resistance Dr Mari is that heard that a yeah okay I've heard that theory minor potential confounding here I'm being sarcastic for those of you who don't mind figure have you guys heard about smart insulin that's been developed finally sorry what smart insulin there a new micro drug a micro molecule that's released it's like a little it looks like a lacrosse a curved lacrosse basket with a little hook on the end and it's an insulin molecule that turns itself off when blood sugar does one thing it turns itself back on and blood sugar to something else so it's self-regulating drugs so they're drugs you can take once and remain flipping into active and inactive States based on what's happening in the metabolic environment meaning it's a smart drug reacting the way insulin should that's that's now in testing and coming to Market soon so it'll reduce the need to do repeated dosing dosing after food Etc instead you take this once every couple of days and get a uh the body semi- regulating until it runs out of the the molecule fascinating times very cool but we can also just reduce the food cravings with Neurotherapy that be good too maybe yeah it depends why they're craving yeah yeah of course as it depends it depends it all depends I have a client who laughs at me because every question he asks I'm like H maybe depends possible yeah perhaps my my running joke is the more learn the more my answer is not yes or no it's it depends Anthony Ramos uh can I share my aluminum uh foil hat with you oh okay in in the 60s now you can all fact check this you know I'm a over glorified video editor so ain't nobody gonna come after me but in the 60s didn't the government have something to do with LSD is he talking about MK Ultra or yeah C was dosing people at Ivy Le universities with LSD as part of a yeah a psychology Professor there was trying to study for the CIA brainwashing and that that's where Ted kazinski he was a subject the uni bumber but I'll look here it may have been a government and you might find Canada in there okay I did sayum yeah but but the budget the government the money they spent on the budget for LSD and you can say uh it was rerouting the brain or whatever but they put a lot of money into that till these bad things started happening and they pulled the plug they had more research than neuro feedback would ever have on LSD and I just wondered where all that stuff went to any idea Anthony while you're muted I don't know I think that uh I I do recall I think I was sending a paper to Jay and it was seeming like LSD was not one of the better psychedelics that it was actually going to um yeah yeah yeah but that's the only thing I'm recall about LSD uh Effectiveness Etc yeah Anthony if you want to ask I wasn't joking here this is part of the negative history in Canada of um I would say you know medical or or psychological psychiatric abuse there were some studies done up here um and and they were viciously wrong just in terms of the you know the effects on people um and I'm pretty sure they were done um at at Migel it was one of the big universities in Canada it might have been Mill I could have it wrong you know before ethic boards were were really the thing yeah well we've talked about this multiple times and Dr Hill I believe you you brought it up I want to say it was the show back in September that why do you need neuroplasticity if you don't need it oh yeah we're always walking around plenty plastic generally so for micro doing or whatever else to boost it you just need to meditate or sleep or explore new environments or excise physically or yada y y like you don't need more plasticity you're still making new brain cells even at age 70 you're still making six 700 800 cells every day new neurons every day so you don't lack for resources you lack for shaping them in certain directions and that's where the hard part of transformation comes is what is you know shift happens but how do you get the direction of change you want to get you know so well we'll ask Jay this tomorrow but I I've seen this I I've gone through John Anderson's neuro feedback class three times and I probably have to go through it three three more times and uh H having worked in the clinic I I I've always heard that uh neuro feedback what it does I don't know why it does it I'm hoping somebody can kind of put the pieces together but it does reduce your cravings for your drug of choice which just sounds like pmic you know Cravings right in our theic's hitting satiety it's giving you satiety raen versus orexin kind of stuff that's what that's what that one's doing it's it's making you satisfied to it removes the it remove it doesn't abolish the craving it makes you feel satisfied so it's a different process the cravings for drugs are anxiety or Obsession dependence and tolerance you know the true addictions which not everything we talk about in this landcape is addictive you need dependence and tolerance if you have true addictive processes opponent process reaction reduced you know positives more negatives Etc then neuro feedback makes the brain more plastic and the brain gets an opportunity to move out of that learning cycle I I believe most learn addiction is simply a form of learning and that process becoming dependent and having tolerance is a form of learning and you can back that out more effectively with neuro feedback if things are juicier is my big take on it not that exciting mom on a mission I got a question for you I'll give you a a couple seconds here when you were running the business and when you do the remote stuff what what are the things that you're hearing from moms out there because you were a mom just trying to get help for your for your child what are you hearing out there that they levels of frustration or you know they've had the runaround or neuro feedback is the the treatment or training of Last Resort what what have you seen out there Mom on a mission yeah unfortunately that's still the same kind of sentiment is that it ends up being the last resort like it was for me I think there's more talk about it in in the world now in neuroplasticity and brain training there's so many other things popping on the market to Intrigue people so it it's not quite as behind the scenes as 15 years ago but it's still nowhere close to mainstream like it should be I believe option one not you know the end of the road we have nothing else to do let's try this like it doesn't make sense to me so I do still hear that a lot of the times by the time somebody finds us they have tried multiple medications or their you know their kid is like mine where they're running out of options of of where to send them and how to accommodate and um they're really scared and frustrated you know and this is also why we get people with acute stuff because sometimes they find us after nothing else works and so we get people you know kids with Organic disorders and thought disorders we get people with severe mixes of trauma and addiction and everything else so this is why I balked at the idea that we we have a certain population we shouldn't work with or complaint Ser it's like well no everyone has agency that they can pull but you're right people find us what this is why we this is why the field my take on the field of neur feedback is so heavily involved with autism support yes yes it's there's very very little that does to autistic needs what neuro feedback does very little that makes this kind of change rapid visible and many many people needed change and change that they want and it tends to stick and that's shocking in that landscape I I worked primarily in a neurodevelopmental population before going into neuro feedback and I was just like wait a minute what people are changing people are changing that guy used to have imp wait what people are changing and that's why I did neur feedback eventually because the fact and this is why we have you know we have Addiction in our landscape we have seizure we have autism as our treatment populations it's because you can actually do work in these Landscapes and these these needs effectively so you know but for the moms that are frustrated out there like what and then Dr Hill and Diane you guys can go back and forth on a remote stuff but you do an intake and then you're sending some Hardware out there and you're you got a screen and you're like you can't touch it but you're like no a little bit over there like how do how does that work yeah it's not that as hard as it sounds you know you can ship the equipment and zoom in with them supervise them while they're doing the qeg mapping make sure they're getting good signals uh you know coach them before and after and then during the sessions um we're in touch with them we don't ever just send equipment out there and let people do their own thing we're constantly monitoring those sessions and you know staying in touch with them about how they're feeling and their progress trackers and yeah it's it's just it's coaching at a distance uh and using the technology to help their brain learn that's all yeah do do they ever get started ahead of time like they put it on and they try to get it going uh before no we haven't had that happen they're they're usually you know we we of course schedule it out you know when they're gonna meet with us and open the box and do their thing but people are so busy these days they're not that eager to jump in and and jump in ahead they're also a little intimidated at the beginning they're like ah yeah they're much more intimidated than than they will be you know after doing it once or twice but initially they're often like help yeah what am I doing and so the idea that we're doing it live very similar Diana the the do initial live sessions for a couple of weeks and then people uh have a Live support system it's always open and the I I don't know if I've ever had somebody start ahead of time maybe once you know playing with the software opening things up but yeah people haven't actually ever jumped into the process of training or do trying to do a qeg on their own without somebody doing a live session right and our software we can control it too we can set the start date when they're able to start just wide open like clinical software would be it's it's made for home use so if if neuro feedback is is more efficacious for ADHD I do you get the harder stuff I would imagine you get the autism stuff uh do you have people that do you want to say what percentage of your business is ADHD and then everything else or just all across the board because I I would think that's that' be ADHD will give you the the best results but I don't know if that's enough uh to move a mom to say hey I'm gonna go and find me some equipment to get it going versus like I don't have any other choice I have to help my autistic kids sever you get kids and you get a lot of ADHD I do ADHD adults who go oh my gosh I got my first ADHD diagnosis during menopause what's going on I'm ADHD or or whatever so a lot of adults with new diagnosis post pandemic for ADHD it's it's a new thing I think it really depends I mean I I don't know how long everybody else has been in practice but I mean we've been on the floor a long time and we find things go in waves I mean obviously at the beginning there was a lot of ADHD and then a lot of anxiety and then I would say uh gosh probably turn of the century it was autism um just started to get on the on the radar and I would say probably 2002 or so I mean 50% of of the people we were working with uh was was with autism because you know there was nothing else and a lot of people didn't understand autism and then you know that kind of flew like there's this interesting uh EB and flow and I think uh adult ADHD again as Andrew said post pandemic there's a huge interest and now adult autism right uh we're working with a lot of individuals who are seeing us for something entirely different starting to really question whether they have adult autism now you know very much you know here I'm going to start ringing the bell um that that Jay Rings all the time which is I don't really care about the the diagnosis we're after the symptoms um but you know in terms of how clients self-refer or talk to uh their friends and family and then send people along you know the next person will say yeah I have adult autism they they kind of self- diagnose and they they want help with ABC same thing with ADHD so uh yeah um we're we're we're symptom based uh which sometimes aligns with the label and sometimes doesn't or diagnosis well happy happy New Year to everybody does anything happen to everybody's business at the new year I know the gyms will be filled up for another couple weeks well busy start I think so this year but I don't know that it's predictable every year it seems different every year we have a new new flow yeah well you know you know Christmas break the kids you know they go back to school is there a depression with the kids the college kids you know they're or if you're a freshman in college any of that type of stuff going on getting back in well over the break we do find people coming back and kind of a help mode um and also parents pulling them in by their ear in terms of I know what's going on they're in denial please do something all of that um I I don't want to necessarily bring up the insurance thing but you know we have you know people can tap into their neuro insurance so I mean the multi the the motivation is clinical it's Financial it's situational all kinds of things yeah well how long does that motivation last for the new year new you is that two we thing I don't know I mean for us if they KN on the door of an actual Clinic I mean they're committed uh Diane and Andrew is it different with with remote is it our minimum our minimum commitment is six weeks of unlimited use that's kind of our minimum we always get have people commit to 40 sessions as the goal as a minimum okay and I used to do six weeks and now I do two months as a starting place for clients because I found I couldn't turn a complete program around without a lot of slop and wasted time and you know eight weeks gives me enough time to get 30 uh plus sessions in so yeah then then to map again which is enough it's a nice as you guys know a nice dose 30 sessions to see a nice solid change in the data and I can see that like a half dose so I get follow on you know I get business because people commit same thing for for uh Dan the the commitment to do a program but yeah Pete I don't know if I have like I mean I have a rush for the new year a little bit most years um but I think it's most mostly because we have a low Christmas week and the week after there's usually a pretty pretty quiet for the second half of December I mean a couple years ago for some reason I had the busiest month I've ever had in December and I don't know why still but you know mostly the last 10 days of the month it's like crickets and then there's a bit of back pressure and everyone that was thinking I'll do it next year decides to do it and there's like a little 20% uptick just from that just from like people putting things off and then deciding to do them I think but uh yeah it's it's it's a harder to sign up for ner feedback than is to like you know pay your your gym membership and then not go yeah so sh should we all be running a procrastination special in November or December or what what would be the protocols for that well I I did a Black Friday special the first time i' ever done one this year and I had really really powerful strong responses from people what you do wow sh Diane hold on I'm gonna Coe the um the way my pricing works is we charge twice as much for the first two months as we do for the next two months so that lets people commit to it get into it we do all the teaching all the instruction all the hard stuff initially and then they're much easier to work with the next two months and we know their brains they're making good progress we actually dropped the prices to half so what I did for Black Friday is I sent emails out to all the prospects who hadn't yet signed up and said um one time sale I only do it once a year and that was the first time I've ever done it but I'm gonna do it once a year and then I took 20% off the program the first program and the other thing I did was reached out to all the existing and previous clients and said hey if you want to do a special renewal instead of two months my my two- Monon renewal rate is 2500 and I said ah you can do four months for 4K and so I did these two plans that were both 4K you know one was 20% off a new one was a renewal that was extended and people loved it and uh you know asked for it the week after we extend it a little bit and and and for New Year's what I often do I'm going to do it this month is like sort of like bring a friend in and you get a qeg for you know they got their Q for free kind of stuff I think as of today I was talking to someone in my office I think I'm gonna post a social shortly that hey thanks guys our First Responders in California any any First Responders I think I'm gonna offer free brain maps for the month of January and all of our oh nice our physical we have four physical offices so for us doing them physically is much lower as you might guess cost and sending gear out and doing all that time but think we're going to make that open for First Responders firefighters police Etc uh for the paramedics for the month of January so it's just free for getting brain maps in case they need to you know check under the hood after running around and saving people good for you Dr Hill thanks Diane when you when you go help out a practitioner what I was asking before is like what are some of the first things that you you work on like Dr Hill was talking about marketing and pricing promotion um what I've seen is you have somebody that just wants to do everything by themselves or because nobody else can do it 100% right and they can't scale themselves and they get kind of swamped do you see that or what do you see I'm fishing here yeah when because you that's kind of circling back to the earlier question of what kind of obstacles are we running into with people that want to start um providing neuro feedback and one thing I think a huge thing that I see is just doing something different is a problem for people right like they are excited about it they get it they think it's wonderful they know it's going to help their clients and we get all this enthusiasm and then to get them to actually commit to doing something different or adding something new to their you know toolkit is the biggest obstacle and you know um after that when I get them to commit to that I've got all these great systems in place and I can come alongside them and and help them learn to talk about it help them figure out the packaging and the marketing plans and you know train the technicians and do the thing um it's getting them to make a decision to do something new and different are are these people what percentage would you say are licensed or not licensed C counselors does that play a role or you don't have to give me a percentage just tell me does that play play a role with with uh whoever's hiring you um I'm trying to think back like early on a lot of my first customers were therapeutic programs so they would have licensed therapists in there and wrap around Services um and depending on what their Staffing situation was it may or may not have been one of the licensed people a lot of the times the technician is not a licensed therapist but we always had those you know services available um I've just started kind of marketing to the the therapy world and licensed therapists and um generally speaking very general I'm not making any you know interceptions um but they're people people and they they work with people and they talk about things and it it again it's just the obstacle is getting them to do something different something with technology something that's outside of their normal just you know what they've been trained to do what what made them reach out to you in the first place then conferences I used just show up and speak about neural feedback somewhere and that's where the interest gets you know more than people you know pounding my door down it's usually me being out there presenting Dr Marie what do you see out there you I mean you're obviously your license talk therapist like how did you your dad was in the business how did this evolv in a neuro feedback for you or you you were just always in it no I mean I I was firmly in education I had Ms in education had you know achieved my quote unquote dream job I was director of curriculum at one of the local colleges and I hated it you know I had very explicitly um decided I wanted to work in private education instead of public education because I didn't want the politics um and in public education it's it's politics versus education but I soon found in private education it was money versus education and I very very explicitly remember a pseudo confrontation with the owner and now I am going to swear and I told him I said you don't have to screw people to make money you know you can provide a really really good educational product and still make money anyways I I was out of there pretty quick um but but it was a uh believe it or not it was a Christmas dinner and classic Yip yapping and I was I was working extensively in accelerated learning at the time uh my father was working uh in uh you know the remedial learning shall we say you know the ADHD Etc and I was wondering whether some of the technologies that he was using would work on accelerated learning um and he said I don't know let's find out um and that was it I you know my my parents just moved to BC he was supposedly retiring you know um came out he was you know going to be working one day a week in a little office so I joined him I I started my business Peak learning and he was you know Dr Paul swingle psychologist doing a little bit of Neurotherapy because he had closed down shop at Harvard in otta you um and yeah five years later we were the biggest practice in I all of Canada for sure but I think you were the biggest practice in the world at that point yeah yeah we were the biggest definitely were people were calling me talking about your practice at that point and you had the biggest you had the most people working for you you you had the biggest running practice anywhere in North America certainly I think North America dominates the nerfy back space pretty much so yeah so that's it it all started at a a Christmas dinner conversation and then of course Peak learning folded into to swingle clinic so yeah but we we've uh we Boutique now um we've we've thought about the remote space back and forth back and forth and we actually started off gosh I don't even know what year but easy 15 years ago mailing out the the clinical equipment and at that time it was like people just didn't have the proper internet speed so we were spending you know so much time troubleshooting the electronics people's naivity of electronics so we we kind of didn't go down that that path anymore so we're we're kind of watching that but I don't know from a a a professional perspective I guess we all kind of get caught in our wheelhouses but I I I love an embodied clinic and and and working with people now I'm not saying we don't have them but I would say that's less than 5% of our practice I'm just speaking from my sister got me into this uh she's she's a neuros psychologist and she has her licenses and she would always hit me in the back of the head when I would say things that I'm not supposed to say like treatment versus training and and all that but what I what I did see was uh with insurance everybody knows it she's like why am I doing this when I can get a couple hundred bucks over here an hour you know doing it and not deal with all this you know other stuff over over here and I that's kind of what I'm wondering is like why did my sister get into it she heard about it from somewhere else and it's a nice end game to to to mental health but there has to be something there where insurance has to kind of P pick up the bar to to pay out for people to do it because there there is a positive result to that any anybody want to make any guesses when uh more mental health parody will come into play well I mean Andrew you and I can box a little bit on that and I'm I'm really happy to do so because I think these are dialogues that that need to happen um but we're we're not classified right you know anybody um they don't even have to take a workshop you know anybody can call themselves a neurotherapist anybody can air quote practice Neurotherapy so you know in in in terms of you know how we Market oursel is a b c you know until that there are standards of practice standards of equipment standards of classification of practitioner that the not just the general public but the rest of the professionals um can uh can identify and and classify we're we're going to be nagged with this um and it's not you know the insurance doesn't know what it's paying for is practitioner a the same as practitioner uh why and the answer frequently is no I I wish um we hadn't lost some um um um Andrew no no no Joshua uh because there was an an article that was we're speaking of Joshua right now hey Joshua more out in the no not Joshua oh God Anthony Ramos it's been a long day it's been a long day yeah sorry uh yeah Anthony um you know he'd get it like that but I just read it very quickly but essentially it's another nice metaanalysis saying Neurotherapy doesn't work for ADHD um and then you look and you and you see it's very very specific except when you know what you're doing ENT essentially is what it is so if they look at the studies that are properly control controlled and have specific protocols then yes it does work you know and and that's just that's the bane of of of everything well the Bane is that none of the research does neuro feedback the way we do it in the clinics it's not done iteratively adjusting for exactly so so when people say oh the re literature says it doesn't work well no the literature said ler didn't show positive effect from many of these metadata studies that's different than St does at work and it's not the same thing neuro feedback in the literature is not the same as neuro feedback in the clinics it's very unrelated of course you get effects if everyone did the same workout who had you know different goals and you didn't change what you were doing with the workout that's what the research looks like it's like 10 sessions or 20 sessions two populations no individualization not enough length yeah you know and and you it's it's you can't I want to Echo what Andrew just said is you can't do the same thing thing with different brains again if you're trying to F follow this this this one label of ADHD we all know that when you look at the brain what we see on the brain of you know 20 people with ADHD it can be very different yeah but even even given that you can find good study after good study that shows somewhat compelling you know they're not the largest effect sizes largest group sizes but you can still find that so the fact this paper came out and sort of is being touted as dismissive of neuro feedback is a little disingenuous because it doesn't say that and it's not really apples and apples here so it's not really a good conclusion to make yeah so you know yeah so so I think we should start talking about apples and apples app okay yeah and but also in terms of you know not just the uh you know a protocol per se um but but and it's say every single um angle of or or layer of what we do we have to be able to differentiate and and until that's done you know Pete uh I'm not saying I understand the insurance Industries because they're disingenuous on so many other this is just easy um you know like no it's an easy SWAT for them um but well I mean they work really really well in every everything except for neur feedback right the insurance companies are awesome and and do great work and fun healthc care and it's only Nur feedback right that that they cause problem in right I think their number their number one job is to figure out how not to pay I think that's what Jay Gman always said yeah but again if you're modeling on Canada um you know certain regions here what they they they United States state oh I'll loop back to that I'll loop back to that um no but it's no in terms of they they pay for the practitioner so it's the practitioner's qualification ations and and license and if Neurotherapy is one of the things you do then it just happens to be covered now I'm going to Echo what Andrew said as well though unfortunately there are many psychologists that know nothing about the brain so but I mean at least it's a mechanism right at least it's a mechanism Pete you want to go there well let's first of all thank Diane Costo for coming on mom she's her tongue and I'm gonna hold it for another discussion we have we have a good time uh going back and forth but we welcome Canada into the United States so Diane how do people find out more no you can't do that you can't do that I have to say something go righte know in in the world politic in terms of what you know Russia is doing to UK Ukraine and other things the humor is gone now I mean the humor is gone you know you're talking that there's no humor in terms of talking about an assimilation of uh now two independent nations it's Canada it's Greenland they're even talking about Panama now right um this is aggression it's it's it's not funny now if I want to be humorous you know I could say sure we we want to join a a country and lose payment for Neurotherapy you know lose our pre education uh lose hardly paying for post secondary you don't have to have tons of money to get yourself an MA or a PhD you know lose our free health care dream on America like really I gotta say I'm I'm opening up a peak brain in Canada uh this year okay one of the one of the considerations is it looks like we're going to have a much different payment ability because because people can get paid in certain categories like veterans basically have full coverage for you know if the if the if the coaches certain types of uh uh training then they get full full coverage for veterans in Canada so I'm I'm sorry doing a lot of things right up here so uh you know take take your ego put it back between your I want my money back that's all so Diane how do people they want to hear about your remote Services how do you could beat me up tomorrow morning Dr swing Diane how do people find out more about you would you please come back on again because it's I'd be happy to come back on again this was really fun and I'm sure it gets even more fun so website is the best place for anybody that wants to look into maybe being a provider or if there are I'll put it here what's the URL yeah it is symmetry neurop pt.com so as a neurop pathway training pt.com got it and then Andrew Hill the the comp coopertition uh that's right uh Peak brain institute.com you can come check us out or Peak brain La over the socials and come see me on YouTube at Dr Hill Dr Hill and you know I I am the king of Gallow humor uh you got two miles to keep that uh current office there well no that's my home the office is about another three miles away the office is fine in Los fine yeah my my cats and I might have to might have to find someplace else though if the Fire gets closer Dr Hill we'll we'll take the garden hose over there for you buddy apprciate that hang in there Dr Dr Marie I see you're chewing your gum there I hear you got an app maybe you like me again yes we do we do uh actually I'm going to do another plug I'm going to be uh doing a webinar for aapb our clinical try is now past 100 but I'm going to be presenting on the on the hundred so and the data is just getting stronger and stronger it's nice and consistent so yeah we have an app right now the the the two that are like fully out will uh we're we're doing our update um on the 10th it should be out on the 15th of January one is brain calm um and obviously that's for quieting the brain and the other one is sleep um and they're both under the swingle Sonic and uh yeah rigorously rigorously tested major effects on uh quieting in the occipital region uh the anterior singulate and without sedative properties obviously not for the insomnia one that one does have a nice little snoozy effect but we're really proud of what we do it's about 10 bucks a month so it's worth it well we thank the panelists for showing up we thank for all of our guests that were you know looking over the Shelf at us and uh hopefully they can come back next week and and pop back in yeah hopefully everyone has has a great night everybody in California on the west coast keep those garden hoses handy they ran out of water we got to send you guys some water uh you know gez Louise hang you want Canada we have all the water oh how much for tomorrow's show this what the first 45 minutes is gonna be this everybody have a great night thank you so much by everyone Canada my home and [Music] sacred bye Diane hope you don't think we're too crazy bye no it was super fun thank you for having me e e e e e e e e e e