Neurofeedback for Trauma and PTSD

hi so did you all know that there's a type of therapy that uses technology to train the brain to function more efficiently I was so amazed by this especially learning that there's evidence behind using this sort of therapy neurofeedback for things like PTSD and other psychiatric and neurological conditions and that's our topic for today's ask an expert series the ask an expert series is a video series podcast where we talk about mental health topics with experts so think of people who have lived expertise or people who have clinical experiences just doing really amazing things I'm your host Monica and I'm a medical student and Neuroscience graduate who is really passionate about all things like Psychiatry and neurology and so to this end I'm really really excited to be able to chat with you today and introduce you all to Dr Hill before I do so I'd like to invite you to leave your thoughts and comments in the chat box or in the comment section down below about what you'd like to see and if you'd like to be involved whether as an interviewee or someone who helped with these interview series then please leave me a message in the comment box below or yeah send me an email so um to begin I would just like to introduce you all to Dr Hill hello hi Monica how are you today I'm so excited to be able to get a chat with you uh how are you I'm doing well thanks thanks for having me of course I like to just start by asking you to introduce yourself and telling the audience a bit more about what you do and some of your background work sure so my name is Andrew Hill I'm a PhD scientist with a degree in cognitive Neuroscience which is the sort of mind brain overlap and unlike most people that get phds in Neuroscience I went into a an applied area so I basically um teach people how to use Advanced Neuroscience tools to do things with themselves so it's a little bit of an applied or functional Neuroscience space in some way and the tool that I primarily use is something called neurofeedback or brain training and alongside that we use something called brain mapping or quantitative EEG to understand the brain but this is uh sort of where I'm at now I've gone through an arc of working with um children with developmental issues all the way through Elders I taught gerontology at UCLA for about 12 years um so Peak brain aging the Neuroscience of Aging um and I have this you know life course perspective on how we may want to take control of our brains you know things that happen when we're young middle age older and then there's both suffering and performance stuff that can be gone after essentially when you do this level of work and gradually the biggest you know I guess differentiator uh for both me as a neuroscientist and also my company which is which is Peak brain is that we really operate like personal trainers for your brain instead of therapists or doctors so this is a therapeutic intervention used by psychologists as you were mentioning in the intro for for trauma quite a lot actually it's a deep rich history of tools and neurofeedback for uh trauma work but you can work on all kinds of things with a diff with all kinds of perspectives and if you know how your brain works it can start to reframe the relationship of your suffering from something that is happening to you and something you're a little frustrated about because it's like some phenomena in your body so I basically operate like a scientist and coach and trainer for people's brains and teach you how to understand your brain uh and then move into a coaching role as we teach people how to change their brain activity to shape resources they're interested in taking control over that sounds amazing I just heard you like through a couple of terms out there EEG neurofeedback for those who are completely new to this what would you kind of tell them like what is this like what is EEG what is neurofeedback just starting from the basics sure yeah so EEG is electricity your brain is making basically the brain's full of neurons just like the heart is full of neurons and rhythmic patterns create information so the heart has this coherent pattern you've all seen on like Gray's Anatomy the EKG it's a very characteristic uh single almost shape as different circuits come together to create a heartbeat that Cycles around the brain uses very similar neurons but instead of coordinating in coherent ways they actually have this chaotic individual little module thing going on where they send information out to other modules so you've got billions of little they're called mini columns or micro columns in the brain and they're little clusters little Columns of about thirty thousand neurons and about a hundred thousand glial cells the support structures and informational you know secondary cells and this little computational unit is basically a CPU in the brain and you've got millions and millions and millions and millions of these things and some of them will operate in a part of the brain with specific jobs and some of them will operate in part of the brain well they'll integrate to other areas of the brain and some will operate where they assemble a network and make some friends briefly and then let go and do other things the next minute and so all of these little modules all these little activation modes that these These Little Engines can go into can be seen through looking at the sort of electrical firing rate these 30 000 cells will all fire at once in a pattern they'll dance they'll dance together and that dance can come from below once per second all the way up to several hundred times per second and that's the information and coding happening in that bit of tissue and a group of those little columns will actually make lots of different brain waves to tune the activity of that little machine that's being created in that part of the brain be it a permanent if you will machine or a temporary one so we have real slow brain waves called things like Delta Delta is the heartbeat of the brain keeps your heart and lungs moving it's what slow waves sleep you know dreamless sleep is made out of but you're also using it a lot when you're awake in the background if you will you shouldn't feel it you kind of live in it you don't think in it and then you have Theta so Delta's about once or twice per second little slow waves and then Theta is more like four times per second and Theta is the lubrication in the brain it releases the tissue to do its job so if you don't have enough of it the tissue gets stuck you get too much of it in your squirrel if it's attention tissue anyways um you can have for trauma stuff for anxiety there's circuits in the brain his job it is to evaluate the environment decide what you're thinking about look for threat pull up thoughts and memories and context you know almost all forms of anxiety even ones that are extremely in the way like trauma response stuff and PTSD and developmental trauma they're not really disease processes the way we think about that in a medical context they're much closer to like cramped up resources natural things that are doing their job but stuck in one mode of Regulation so I think about trauma a lot you know from looking at the brain Maps um yes on a mechanically mechanistically alpha beta theta Delta these different brain waves beta by the way is an activated gas pedal brain wave and Alpha is the neutral brainwave for the rest of our discussion today so um but I think about these modules a little bit how they how they're tuned how they're running for you and you can sort of conceptualize different aspects of yourself like you might look at other aspects of your body look at your bone density or your lipid panel you can learn something you know triglycerides are high better back off in the Ben Jerry's for a couple months and you do and you have better triglycerides and you're taking control of it and you're not out of control of your you know cholesterol phenomena whatever it is and the same can be true of trauma stuff there's a there's a circuit on the back middle of the brain called the posterior cingulate and its job is largely to do things like ah watch the road heads up okay there we go and Orient you and alert you to the outside world and we're doing it we're using it all day long all the time to orient to the outside world generally the back of the head is the outside world in the front of the head to the inside world we have these things called cingulates that switch the attention around internally or externally from the front and back and when the posterior cingulate cramps up we start evaluating the environment for danger or for threat or for the possibility of things going wrong and this is kind of like you know your low your lower back might cramp up and spasm in a car accident so you can walk away your posterior might spasm up and look for the danger so you don't miss it again because it's an adaptation to the acuteness if you will of the strain your brain learns suddenly the world is not especially safe or predictable and then it over activates that resource very much like having a strong muscle that's gotten spasmed because of how activated it got so if I looked at your brain I would see different brain wave patterns hanging out like fingerprints sort of resource signatures and you can see the posterior and anterior cingulate as big giant Blobs of brain waves sometimes because they're really they're called the rich Club Rich Hub tissues we have several uh chunks of tissue in the brain that will integrate lots of other parts of the brain one group of those circuits is called the default mode Network which is the sort of referential self-musing awareness kind of stuff and a little racetrack of Consciousness as it zips around and it zips through the cingulates and you know how these things are activating if they're making lots of alpha then you're not as activated in the singulits if you're making lots and lots of beta the one on the back you're caught in your gut and you're ruminating one in the front you're caught in your head and you're perseverating so often with trauma response you see the obsessiveness in the front and the threat sensitivity in the back and the person's brain is sort of playing ping pong with stuff that bothers them did you hear I heard did you worry did you worry didn't hear and you can't sort of let that settle back down even you cognitively know that you don't need to be activated the way you are your brain has moved into the mode it it learned it better darn well do for safety reasons but humans are you know creative and intelligent and we can catastrophize and think of what could go wrong you know so that's unfortunately that adaptation can then go uh other places it's you know complex so anyways those are brain waves things we can see through the head you know from the outside as activation signatures of different parts of the brain and then we're able to just add on like we're able to modulate it and because sometimes as you were mentioning um it could be a bit over activated or under activated probably contributing to some sort of distress that people might be feeling and I suppose that neural feedback would allow us to better modulate that and to tune it kind of like fine tune it is that my understanding correct I don't know exactly yeah yeah briefly tune it and get a subjective experience and validate what you think is going on because just to back up for a second when we look at your brain waves the way we sort of interpret what's going on is not oh my gosh you're unusual something's wrong because guess what people are weird they are like we're not expecting you to be average but yet we have to look at your brain compared to something so we use an age match sample and say aha here's a bunch of ways in which you're different than average you get extra beta waves over here and theta waves over there and Alpha Waves over here and that's a true statement but that doesn't have like construct or psychological validity it has sort of just basic data validity so I would have to say to somebody hey you've got a lot of beta on the back midline are you a little threat sensitive do you ruminate are you activated that way if they were like oh gosh yes I that's that's true okay now we're in the realm of plausible for you that's cool so now we can decide is that important to work on oh it is all right let's exercise down that extra beta perhaps bring up the alpha briefly and see how it feels and for that particular resource pretty reliable so most of the time someone would go oh yeah I felt really good let's do more of that but here's here's how it actually works here's how we change your brain here's how we mess with your head um in the case of the cingulates be it uh PTSD phenomena or OCD in the front or ticks or all singular driven phenomena so if you bite your nails or have Tourette's or have intrusive thoughts they're often the cingulates are heavily involved again as these natural circuits that cramp up pretty easily so you often would stick wires on one or both of those above the scalp just you know stuck on the head very briefly and then an ear clip or two and measure in real time the amount of activity coming out of the cingulates maybe the amount of beta waves moment to moment that beta is going to fluctuate and change on its own and you're also going to make some Alpha some neutral resting brain wave that's between the activation tone moment to moment as well so the computer watches your brain and whenever you happen to make less beta and more Alpha for half a second the computer goes oh good job it makes a game and the screen start to move so little puzzle pieces start to fill in or pack many some dots or your car drives faster and the Brain says Hey stuff is happening I kind of like stuff what's that stuff nice and then a couple seconds later the beta comes back up and the alpha dips the brain the computer sees that and the car slows down or the or the puzzle piece is stall and the Brain says Hey where's my stuff I like I like stuff more than no stuff I'm having no stuff huh and a couple seconds later it happens to move the right direction again and the game resumes so the big trick here is we move the goal post every 30 seconds or so we adjust what we're asking for so as a medical as a doctor to be in a neuroscience student you've already picked up on the fact that this is operant conditioning basically so for folks that are psych students there's you know or folks that aren't we've all heard of Pavlov's dog drooling from a bell that's not what this is that's all learning is basically what's called associative learning we tie things together but in pavlovian conditioning you take things that aren't normally Associated and tied them together this is scenarian conditioning or operant conditioning where you take stuff that already exists and you shape it in a certain direction you're already making brain waves so if you put a little measurement sort of criteria in the computer right next to what you're doing and then watch it when it fluctuates on its own in a certain direction applaud that the brain goes well that's interesting huh okay and this is no different than basic learning when you're a little baby flopping around and you manage the little baby push-up and you can see 15 feet you're like whoa information that's so cool the next day you're like let me see some more and you just push yourself back up and you can see again you weren't they can wait left bicep right right bicep you just learn the association you know of information flow with the ACT activation of those particular neurons and with some trial and error you learn to crawl or walk or whatever and in this case because we're dragging the criteria around gently the brain will start to reach in this case let's say for more Alpha and somewhere around two or three or four sessions in to your first neurofeedback experience is when you feel something not usually right away it can happen but it's a little more rare so usually a few sessions in after the session the brain's like oh wait a minute Alpha's producing information okay I want some more Alpha and it Jacks the alpha up in the posterior cingulate for a couple hours and you're like oh I felt kind of chill that was really really strange huh nah maybe I didn't feel it okay try it again and if we're in the ballpark of reality you feel it again and it's stronger so you have this relationship with your brain it becomes iterative and gentle and you can test stuff and see how anxiety stuff feels or executive function things and you get reliable changes on anxiety features executive function features sleep speed of processing brain fog so the gross stuff that is that all human brains do especially when that cramps up hard like all humans have anxiety but when those resources are cramped now we have dysregulated you know diagnosed if you will levels of anxiety but the resources are not atypical they're just not regulated real law right now so that's the stuff that we have the most uh visibility over in those population metrics the qeg or brain mapping and have the most reliable ability to change using neurofeedback so we trained the brain for half an hour about three times a week starting about a week and a half in you're like oh wait a minute huh and then we're having a report to us what you're noticing and we adjust your workouts and we have people map their brain about every other month and for things like features of anxiety or ADHD or stuff like that we can get about a full standard deviation in the bell curve every other month so when I work with acute PTSD for instance with veterans six weeks in they're like Doc I'm feeling awesome am I done I'm like well you know because these these are often tough people right so they're ready to go on with the next step of their lives but in six weeks you can usually pull the teeth of classic intrusive you know PTSD complex PTSD developmental slow moving relational stuff attachment stuff a little slower and there I would want to do like regulatory resilience stuff on sleep stress and attention and then you can dig down to the subcortical structures by tapping the ones that are cortical for instance a lot of Developmental trauma might be driven by there's a structure it's kind of beneath or maybe in front of in the chain of information the posterior cingulate called the periaqueductal gray and when I was first in school all we were taught about the pag is that it dumps uh painkillers into the central Canal when you do things like slam your thumb with a hammer turns out pag is very sensitive to emotional pain too so if you're exposed to high levels of stress when you're very young the pag develops this sensitization for the possibility of pain occurring in the future so it's not the the trauma response itself it's sort of like the voice in your head that's been yelling at you for 30 years about the trauma you missed uh when you were younger and it's the sort of pre-alert almost not the alert but the pag is not cortical it's subcortical in some ways you can't see it in an EEG you wouldn't know it's having trouble you'd see other stuff sleep issues and general anxiety you can see you can see sensory integration issues you can see social uh cueing and social overwhelm stuff sometimes a big circuit behind the right ear called the tempo parietal Junction cingulates but these are all things that I would walk through with someone and say hey is this you does this matter like I teach them to read brain maps and they teach me what's important in the maps while we go through data essentially and after that we have the workout plan starting to form yeah that's so interesting I never thought of it sort of like operant condition that you put on an electrical cellular level an involuntary Behavior basically yeah the brain waves so most neurofeedback is involuntary you're like this can't be working yeah and then three sessions and you're like oh wait a minute huh okay and then and then every session feels like something different as you change gear so then it's kind of fun to push your brain okay so essentially it's like yeah it's brain training so it was operant conditioning to modify the different kind of electrical signals that me we might be getting that might be Associated the resting tone the Tendencies of the circuits to activate or relax or you know for ADHD the real common one in the right hand side there's a circuit involved with sleep maintenance and with uh knowing you're paying attention and it uses a low frequency beta that we discovered neurofeedback around this frequency called SMR uh the neurofeedback guys practice clinically is um was discovered in the mid 60s uh on cats and the frequency we that was being manipulated kind of by mistake in some ways uh that we discovered is a frequency cats make tons of if you've seen a cat lying on a windowsill that still body and laser-like focus humans use that too to sit still to not be reactive to stay asleep to not have seizures so literally the comcat in the windowsill is the opposite of ADHD like like literally it's the same brainwave State Higher versus low and SMR or this low beta wave relative to the Theta the lubrication of the brain is involved with dis-inhibition if you have too much Theta and not enough of this low power beta things are disinhibited and that can happen on the motor strip left to right and produce executive functions sleep other kind of broad stuff when it happens front to back on the cingulates the high Theta you don't get like an like a classic anxiety you know very hot kind of experience internally you get a disinhibited experience internally so you can get people with diagnoses if you will or complaints that are PTSD like you look at their brain and they have a giant blob of theta on the front midline the anterior cingulate and that's somebody who has songs playing in their head all day long or they bite their nails aggressively or they have um you can sometimes see the anterior cingulate and then the spot behind the right ear which is the tempo parietal Junction for drinking the world in when those are both hot people have environmentally or people focused anxiety triggers things like misophonia where people's sound of chewing will drive you nuts or agoraphobia or claustrophobia that can be it can be very similar circuits so when somebody walks in kind of the point of this this uh tour through different anxiety flavors in the brain is when someone walks in the diagnostic label I care much less about the diagnostic label than I do about which resources are operating which ways for you can you understand them does it make sense is there some set of resources that you would like to change and often I mean often when I look at someone's brain who has a particular diagnostic label the picture of what they're experiencing is much more nuanced someone comes in with you know tons of anxiety complaints and diagnostic goals and they have a bunch of brain fog and sleep issues showing up that are related or someone comes in with an ADHD response a diagnosis and goals around executive function and you look at their brain and they're like traumatized like dramatically and not sleeping and that's why they're not you know doing their homework or paying attention to schools because they're burnt out during the day falling asleep and having sleep anxiety at night or something but a psychologist sat there in the school classroom went are you having trouble paying attention and the kid went huh because they were half out of it oh yeah check mark ADHD so the point here is not to reinforce any diagnoses you may be having trauma responses or anxiety phenomena But anxiety is a natural phenomena when it's appropriate and then you want able to put it down again you know the the front midline when it's super hot can be OCD or it can be a CEO who is hyper focused the back midline can be a threat sensitivity in your mind's looking for the danger all the time or you're an effective lifeguard or a mom with like too much chaos going on as catching stuff and keeping little you know frantic kids safe we have resources that tend to get overused over activated but they're not unnatural resources in fact if you're having a trauma response having a like a strong visceral threat anxiety response it's a powerful part of your brain it's doing its job kind of too well it's kind of like a big big strong muscle if I show it to you on your brain on your brain mapping it changes your relationship with it suddenly you're like oh wait a minute oh yeah I am ruminating I am threat sensitive okay I don't know my brain that's so annoying but you suddenly stop being like guilty or ashamed or feeling overwhelmed or as overwhelmed when you can make it mechanic a mechanical or operational a little bit just like your lipid panel you know 50 years ago and no one did lipid panels and well we didn't have tons of sugar in in this country anyways but we didn't have the agency there's no gym on the corner to go like burn off the you know the body fat risks and things but this is just that next Evolution where you should have I feel you should have some agency uh and a lot of what we consider psych stuff I feel we are we should be our own experts we can be our own experts we shouldn't rely necessarily on yet another treatment provider to be right for us to give us the right label to give us the right intervention that's wonderful if they're right but the brain's imperfect and people aren't their labels and aren't their diagnoses and aren't don't fit into buckets so a lot of people get imperfect treatment for things that are pretty acute because of the narrowness of that label I mean those tools those labels were developed for insurance companies not for individuals and not for doctors so they don't often fit the person's experience super well and showing you what your brain's actually doing I find to be uh more useful than giving it a name you know giving it a certain scary word or two there's my soapbox no that's amazing I just have so many questions because like I've never heard of this like it's my first time I mean I've gone through undergrad I've gone through grad school and surprisingly I mean neural feedback isn't like that new and I it's my first time really learning about this yeah so I'm just really yeah really amazed and um I've just been wondering because I mean it's very very true that I think people should take and take charge of their own wellness and look at a modality many different modalities in terms of like what works for them so for people who are coming in to get brain scans to what extent do they also um do other sort of things like CBT or is it primarily just um doing neurofeedback what is a typical presentation of your clients I was about half and half people who are not doing other things and people who are and in a trauma and anxiety context people often either have a therapy support system that they're working with DBT CBT um a lot of family systems theory work which a lot of my trauma clients love a lot of somatic experiencing um if there's attachment trauma early life trauma DBT becomes sort of like a high priority for folks I would I would say but I also get folks that have been dealing with their anxiety and Trauma for 10 15 20 years that are experts in it that have gone through all kinds of interventions that have tried all kinds of stuff and they're kind of really Savvy at managing the activation managing the dysregulation when it happens and they're done with meds or therapy or they've tried everything and nothing works I get a lot of people like that actually and so you know I'm I'm here to be part of the team and I don't want to replace a therapist and if people ask me about that combination I sort of paint a picture of the neurofeedback coaches as the as the coach in the gym the strength and conditioning coach helping you build the resource and your therapist like the coach in the field helping you realize you've dropped your elbow when you're releasing or something so it's a it's a it's a resource versus skill thing and skills are voluntary and effortful and nuanced and you develop them that's true of stress response stuff but you can pull the teeth of being triggered by it with the resource manipulation with neurofeedback so we don't do therapy directly but I work with an awful lot of therapists as you might imagine but we do mindfulness training as our piece of it is you train the brain train the mind and many people do other interventions and we're also sort of that biohacker Wellness space so a lot of my clients do additional things macronutrient partitioning and cycling to create hermetic stressors and anti-aging effects um high level interventions like Hyperbaric medicine or red light therapy peptides nootropics all kinds of biohacking being done and we sort of often operate like a best practices you know check a sounding board oh yeah the thing you asked about that's totally bunk don't don't do that oh that thing yeah we like keto but here's how we suggest to do it not the way the gurus are saying for instance um so we try to give people that sense of agency and teach them the neuro they need to know and then we provide uh ongoing support so not only the the the neurofeedback which is one of our heavy lifters if you will but all of our offices we have four offices in the U.S they all provide um whenever you do a brain map with us you get a membership that's a year long so maps are free for a year and in the US maps usually are Grand or more and and ours are much much less in fact all your listeners can get a discount if they want to our offices it's normally 500 bucks a year for a membership but it's 250 for your listeners or your viewers if those of you on YouTube right now or Facebook watching us um that gets you the ability to map your brain and learn about it and look at it maybe you're going to map your brain on caffeine or cannabis or Adderall or Xanax or whatever it is you can learn how your brain works these gross features of stress sleep attention and since the mapping is free and the tools are there and the coaches are super excited to help you map your brain it starts becoming this relationship with your brain that changes gradually and progressively over time even if you don't do neurofeedback if you see how your meds are changing your brain or your new meditation practice or your new sleep hacking or whatever it is or you can look at your brain and realize how bad your alcohol habit might be or you know how visible your trauma is as I'm saying earlier it can be very frame when you see it as a part of your brain instead of something that's just happening to you um anyways uh we would want to you know teach everyone their their perspective uh uh the perspective taking sort of you know exercise of looking at their brain um I'm not that surprised you haven't heard about it even though you're you're a neuroscience student and you're now a med student it's rarely taught in med school and when I was applying to grad school in the early 2000s yeah um I had to be careful using the word biofeedback or neurofeedback or admissions committees rolled their eyes like obviously uh it's one of those like fringy things you know 20 years ago now um but you know I went to grad school UCLA arguably one of the better uh psych institutions in the world and uh about halfway into my PhD program I noticed the sea change and all the senior scientists and all the big names like hey you're doing nerfy back research that's pretty cool you want to use one of my tools when you're testing and there was this like sudden interest in you know about a decade ago and I think that the availability of this stuff the tools come down in cost the access is coming up um for us the pandemic accelerated remote work so we have everything we do available virtually as well although the really good memberships only available in the offices for that free ongoing access we can't send data out unlimited or equipment out unlimited for free for you unfortunately um but we would like to generally to to to uh solve that thing you just described which is whoa I've never heard about this I can't tell you I mean I've seen seven eight thousand clients in the past decade or more and I cannot tell you the number of times the number of hundreds of times if somebody gets two or three weeks in four weeks in and has had some interesting experiences changes in sleep changes in stress response changes in seizures or migraines or whatever and then they say to me why why is everyone else doing this like I hear that so often why why didn't I know about this and I felt that way I trained my brain for the first time at age 28. and I was like oh oh okay I can go back to grad school now because I now got control over my executive function stuff but why was no one teaching me about this stuff 30 you know years ago whenever it was so uh it's a bit it's a nice tool to have some control over your over your brain even if it's imperfect even if it's in a sort of iterative and Progressive instead of a simple solution yeah for sure like I'm a huge proponent to giving people choice to have resources to really take charge of their health especially evidence-based choices so hopefully everyone here today learned a bit about neurofeedback I certainly did and yeah just getting to invest in yourself really to you know learn about yourself from the introspective perspective from the electrical brain perspective really anything um just being able to explore and see what works or what doesn't work because then either way you know so I think it's a really cool thing and yeah thank you very much oh of course my pleasure before we end this I just really wanted to uh spend a few moments to just really highly to everyone where people can find you so you mentioned that you have different yes we had different offices physical offices in New York City in Los Angeles uh in St Louis so you know both coasts and kind of in the middle for you the folks in Colorado are cursing my name right now because there's nothing in the mountains sorry but um we also do our whole program so neurofeedback is usually a few months long we send all the gear out we work with you and it's really involved so if you want to do a whole program with us you don't need to be near an office we do everything pretty much equivalent in and out of our offices but if you want to map your brain and get access to sort of like the biohacker special and have this tool then you'd have to come into La St Louis New York City or Orange County California and we'll probably have a few overseas we have some other partners we work with overseas too soon that'll become other Peak brain uh offices but um that piece of it normally our our membership in the office is 500 bucks a year again we'll we'll give for the folks who are watching a half price membership so it's 250 if you want to see what your brain looks like and you can use the same discount if you wanted to to do a neurofeedback program those are a few thousand dollars but if you want to apply the same 250 off you can do that for one of the larger programs and then just check us out in the socials most of our socials are Peak brain LA because that was our first office and I'm also at like Andrew Hill PhD but that's mostly like cooking so if you want to watch you cook go for it but Peak brain La is where all of our health and wellness Our biohacking advice we have giveaways uh we have a little campaigns throughout the year that we do for health and wellness challenges so amazing yeah join our join our socials and Bug us and tell us what you're interested in for for brain stuff and we'll you know see we can do thank you so much yeah to anyone visiting there mentioned I guess you want just like to go video and then you got to take advantage of the great discounts that's right that's right um yeah thank you so much for teaching me teaching everyone about neurofeedback telling us about really how it works what we can expect out of it and letting us know where to find you and with that thank you everyone for watching if you have any other thoughts or comments or if you'd like to be involved again get in contact at Monica psych2go.net and yeah until then see you in the next live stream bye thank you