Tua's Concussion 🤕 & Fencing Response Explained | LIVE Q&A with Neurofeedback Experts 🏈

yeah you're talking about the guardian helmets supposedly each person that wears it the 10% on the hitter and 10% on the hit to reduce con concussions yeah so why doesn't T we one well vanity probably existing helmets look so good yeah yeah they got those they got the cool stuff on the side with the flames you know or whatever I like there was I there was a whole discussion about the evolution of helmets and it used to be just you know some leather thing they guys put on their head when they finally decided to wear helmets it had no and all of a sudden somebody said this a great marketing idea we put the name of the team on the side you know promote you know boosterism etc etc and I like all right that was the evolution so now we have this helmet and the new helmet doesn't allow for that because it's got these lumps in it so it's not as cool looking well Tua Tu a tava Leola Anthony Ramos however you say it uh he has done a lot for mental health field for us because uh the traffic that pours in when people want to see what a fencing posture looks like uh does anybody want to take on what that means when you get a when you get a jolt to the Head now I've heard there's posturing where you kind of freeze up like this and then there's the the on guard asymmetric uh tonic motor reflex atmr it's it's a childhood reflex that's there up until about age uh oh I think it I think it vanishes between nine months of age and a year of age it's very similar to The babinsky Reflex the foot scratch you know reflex that changes as the mootor as the nervous system hits a developmental milestone and if it shows up later in life big things have gone Ary you don't want to see a positive babinsky sign that means you have a significant you know central nervous system issue probably in this case you're probably getting compression of the brain stem and creating that uh the babies do it so they can um learn to crawl because it's the it's the position from which you can turn over most easily so they do it reflexively as a way of starting to learn to crawl so that's getting off getting off their back onto their stomach kind of thing yeah right on that's what you're seeing you're seeing that primitive reflex assert itself when the brain stem gets significant uh trauma so these reflexes are still still hard they still wired in there just long forgotten and disused and other things on top of them right you know other systems will be masking them or have have secondary inh inhibitory tone development as more tissues develop what you're seeing is a failure of inhibition and A Primitive one of the Primitive like the Moa or the grasping or the suck you know right this is the Primitive reflex reasserting itself right in a 300 pound guy who's hurdling to the air because he just got a bell rung you know so well get on He he'll get going on this so before he gets or anybody want to take out what a can cussion is for the lay people in here I the lay person in me says that your brain's getting hit one way and the brain is getting slash back the opposite way what do you call that Contra coup or something like that anybody want to take it Contra coup exactly right Andrew you're you're ready to roll on that one touch oppos touch opposite touch C Contra cou because we think we think of the brain because we see it so often on television you know a guy in the morg holding up a brain in his hand you know looks like this sort of pretty hard object you know and a dead brain kind of is but a live brain not so much it's much more fluid like jelly like I don't know what's what's a good word for it I've never held a live brain in my hand so I don't know and even those ones you see in the TV shows or if you went to a uh a lab where they use the same brains year after year to teach medical students right those brains are firm because they're fixed with falah or formalin exactly a dead brain is pretty sloppy you it is pretty like a it's an organ and the Brain the human brain moves it's it doesn't move as much as the heart but almost it like literally pulses and moves two Hertz waves of Delta at night create these agitation waves to the brain like a washing machine a huge amount of physical uh ducting and movement and tissues we're just now figuring out in the lymphatic system so yeah it's not a very stable still organ it's probably a mercy we can't feel it you yeah so you think about it encased in this heart hard skull and then slash that around like you know put a put put something relatively fluid in a jar put an egg in a jar and then just throw it around for a while see what happens it's not PR getting back to Tua I mean two years ago people didn't know at least the people that I talked to in sports didn't know about the posturing and all that now parents know that if their kid gets hit in the Noggin and they go like that or anything like that they're like you're not going back in the game I don't care what what happens that I do that's not a mild concussion either if you're if you have a posturing response a fencing response reassertion of primitive reflexes it is a major brain injury um there is bleeding there is secondary inflammation there's likely a lot going on not just getting a concussion what is the difference between the two Dr Hill between uh the posturing and the fencing or is it both the same because people are reference both both them because reflexes different reflexes are all posturing right so you can have a um a symmetric uh tonic motor response which is again these you'll see these things in babies characteristically as healthy things but um babies will lift their arms up and stretch them stretch their neck and pull their legs up and that's the symmetric one it's to get ready to start to move basically to crawl and then there's the asymmetric one which is the you know Elvis one where you're you're doing your your fencing posture um and that's so you can turn over and those things go from reflexive into voluntary uh motor patterns as you mature and the symmetric one usually matures out by the time you're born actually so it's it's more it's only voluntary but in pries you'll see it you'll see the symmetric one the involuntary crawling stretch you'll see it in pries up until they finish developing basically it's one of the signs that they're still pries if they do that thing so these are the the Primitive reflexes the posturing moo which is the suckling reflex or the grasping reflex they're all there but then secondary systems either move them into more of a voluntary thing because they're inhibited or they become part of a deeper motor pattern generally so uh you're almost seeing a decorticate kind of phenomena decorticate phenomena from uh concussions are the big difference is a fencing posturing or or posturing response is instant you see it right away as the change in mechanical uh tissue happens but with a swelling event you then see the cortex gets kind of disengaged from deeper tissues and you can have similar kinds of phenomena happen you can you don't usually see a motor response the same way but you might see torticolis or Dyas which is the same thing in a baby you can create the fencing response reliably who's below about nine months of old by taking one arm uh and bringing it out and turning their head uh well I think you can just turn their head in One Direction and The Arms will do this by themselves actually usually it's it's it's triggered by the neck turning triggered by something in the neck happening so it gives us a sense of why concussions can uh trigger it I think hi Dr Marie we're talking about uh football football players getting their heads knocked around once again once again yeah American Gladiators what do you say yeah would you let your kid be a fighter why are you letting your kids why are you letting your 14-year-old play football what's wrong with you well that's my issue John I'm a 100% with you you know when we're adults we we take calculated risk okay and if you're going to pay me $5 million a year okay um and I might get injured or you know if you're a Formula One driver there are many many professions and you're an adult and you make that choice yourself then that's your choice yep my issue is when we throw Young children in here when they do not have the the proper development to make those rational choices and we injure them I know it's a very very unpopular stance um but I'm 100% behind you doc 100% yeah but but you we also know that uh unless you train children young they they don't grow up to be as fine players you know in terms of the training and the tuning really want to throw this further or is this a form of child abuse I don't know like like how extreme do we want to have this I have said that I have said that publicly that's my opinion I think it's I think it's child child neglect at the very least yeah yeah yeah but you got kid little kids playing soccer cheerleaders the sports you wouldn't think of and they're the ones that are getting uh messed up worse than football well P I think you I don't know about worse than I'm not sure about worse not sure about worse than football what was the stat on CTE for retired football players 98% there's the stats football players there's no stat for the cheerleaders ask around I could I could my experience the biggest injury population is women who play soccer yeah especially especially young women that that's the that's the most injury-prone sport that exists in my they they B of the header women well actually you know the U one of the things that a lot of people you know there are we talk a lot about gender here and how gender has become uh political but there are some very distinct physical uh differences in males and females and one of the primary reasons not just in football or or soccer um uh for females but also in terms of car accidents and Whiplash our neck girth you know were much much more elegant and elated here we don't have you know the larger neck so when you get that impact it's a a huge impact because we do not have the muscular protection to reduce the velocity of the hit so if you are a parent or a coach working with young females I don't know do you like really build up the neck muscles the way we do and like if you look at American football players I mean the running joke is they have no neck you know um and quite frankly if you have no neck you're you're more protected I mean who can we think in terms of celebrities Kira nightly comes to to mind because she was actually in a soccer soorry I I bounced back between soccer and football but she was in a soccer movie as a soccer player that well now she's a um a mature woman but as a as a young female that's exactly the type of neck that you are going to get horrendously injured in uh in a sport um accident as a or or regularly playing the sport the way you're coached to play as a young female I mean it's it's Anatomy it's basic anatomy female to female and of course male to female Andrew you want to pipe in there or well just that you know we're we're sort of also operating in the dark right we don't have good tools for screening and catching injury so one of the argument sort of being alluded to here or or framed is that it's inevitable and it might be and there may be some aspects of sport that we have to modify I I'm over the past 25 years of working with teenagers and adults I'm seeing a huge drop off of American football in at the team level you below college level tons of of people are just dropping out entire Sports programs are closing in towns because there's just no kids to play football um and the football that is happening below the high school levels turned into touch football now there no longer contact football in most places so I'm seeing that modification that awareness of parents I would also argue that you know maybe these are sports where there's it's unavoidable I don't know and that's a long question but what we don't have uh uh in in place that we could have is reliable mechanisms for screening and catching phenomena you know there's there's uh things that are like qegs that are used fieldside um there's a amazing device that Professor uh Mike loosemore in the UK has developed which is it's the bik guard um sensor and if you're if you're a soccer player football player and you head the ball or get a concussion in real time from the accelerometer in the bike guard they model the accelerative force of the impact and on a computer show inside the brain where it's likely to have done based on the impact and make a real-time judgment about oh no no out of play too much force based on a likelihood of later damage and they've modeled it all out it's amaz so that kind of stuff qegs for your kids every year a sense of brain health field side screening we could be doing a lot more to catch because we're also up against the Dignity of risk here right we don't want to coddle our our young people they need to develop power and you know we send them to sports because we also send them to war right that's sort of like we're creating powerful people there's discipline there's all kinds of cultural stuff probably are not going to drop contact Sports out of our cultures just a hunch they are but but point being it there's something about football that I think is unique it it it's inherent in its design that people are crashing into each other that's not true in soccer it's not true in you know there's a bunch of sports where there are high levels of of injury but it's inherent in its design inher you got two 300 pound guys racing each other these guys are doing a 4840 you know these two guys crash into each other yeah yeah it's not they're wearing armor they're wearing armor the brain doesn't the brain doesn't have that armor the brain doesn't have that armor so here's the thing on football guys so I read something recently that helmets may have increased the traumatic uh damage to the brain because now people are going at each other harder it might be incentivizing it and I think I even heard a friend who's a football fan said oh yeah they used to not be able to tackle a certain way I don't remember what he said but they weren't allowed to be quite as Direct on soccer I posted in the chat I've been posting stuff in the chat um soccer players except for goalkeepers and that's important are 3.5 times more likely to suffer neurogen degenerative disease uh compared to the goalkeepers and the general population um and the it's greater even for defensive player and I think what's happening is it's the heading so we just need to get rid of heading I mean Y and uh yeah I think I I heard you kind of say under your breath where we we were yelling over you but also hockey this this is a big one you know in terms of Canada well yeah you're meant you're meant to do cor cor you know body on body in hockey kind of the game can be played completely without smashing into the boards Etc and many of us have just [Laughter] been but you know in I I don't like hockey I I just don't like to see that type of um destruction and intentional harm um and the fact that the game can be played and enjoyed without it so I think we also have to take some responsibility as as as fans communities um that there like as as Anthony said just take the heading out of soccer um the hockey takes away the violence but that the fans aren't interested the fans actually go for the violence so maybe we're just talking a lot more about our ourselves as human beings well I mean if you look at heading just to back up for a second we're all scientists you know practitioner types there's literature showing one single heading drill on a weekend in a high school one single drill creates inflammatory mark markers in the brain and a drop in short-term memory equivalent to a concussion for 48 hours oh my gosh yeah oh my gosh 30 kids did one drill they measured a gabit metabolites they measured short-term memory before and after and the drop was equivalent to a unable it went away in a couple of days it didn't last the same way but it looked like a Subacute concussion basically yeah so well we also look at our our stereo types of athletes okay going back you know 1940s 1950s you know the uh the athlete you know and athletes were were were commonly thought to be poor performers scholastically having a lot of ADHD Etc I strongly argue that we have a lot of brain injury and cumulative brain injury um that we're just now again probably also had undiagnosed ADHD and people that perform High stimulus circumstances getting tracked into non you know supportive academic environments otherwise some that was happening so guys I also post one it said that a majority of TBI goes undetected but that doesn't mean it's not having effects the last thing I posted uh was a study that says in the UK a study of 617 supposedly healthy 40-year-olds uh found that TBI was the likely main culprit for depression and sleep problems and so that's probably from their high school days I mean most people are not College athletes so this is maybe affecting people 20 years later yeah well if you grew up where I grew up and you know I I literally used to skate to school in the winter I had the just the joy of being on a on a canal but my own wife nobody wore a helmet one little V right on the back of your head you know so there is this thing called life as well but I I think we we probably have a duty now to know what we know um knowing what we know to eliminate um the instigation or of the the possibility of these known injuries versus you know that stuff happens when children and adults play um so looping back to what we were saying before we can do extreme danger um to people's development and lack of resilience we try and protect everybody from anything but I think we want to really think about taking away the irresponsibility of of known side harm why do you have to get a physical every year why do you have to get a sign why do you have to get a physical every year to get signed off on before you play a sport I guess so you get a baseline so why don't you get a baseline with an e g right yeah what what would how would you guys do it well we do that in any family of wealth I mean I hate to put this in socioeconomics but we have a lot of individuals they don't pursue a course of the of therapy they come in they want a baseline brain map just in case anything happens happens whether that's a car accident or they know that their child is going to be playing sports so they have a road map back to Baseline Health um I highly recommend that if if you're a family that can afford it do it and you know Peak brain does it cheaply sorry Peak brain does it cheaply you don't have to be wealthy to get a peak brain okay did you how would you do it though what age how what age yeah depend on the the goals you you can do brain mapping i i i routinely do it as young as six months that's a hard sell my kids little tiny caps I have little tiny caps they're this big they're really cute that's cute seriously kid five six years old whatever that is when they're running around they have no idea what they're doing they're just running down the street following the ball when should they get a baseline so you got something to compare to in case they do get bonked I don't know I mean developmental model you know before I I kind of say that you know before five you you really got to put in your measures for for for age and then you know when we're talking about ADHD learning disabilities Etc you know seven to n is when the brain is really fine-tuning and then you know whether you have you know a Mis learning phase versus um a true learning deficit um so if if you really want solid traction of who and what a person is I would say get them at nine u but I'm sure all of us here on the panel will say lots can happen before then so I mean it's a huge it depends you know what what is the purpose of the baseline or Pete as you were saying and also Andrew which is if you can afford it get one every year like yearly physical yeah and you can see enough variability once developmental changes slow down across people so that's about six and a half years old yeah that's and a half there's enough stability that all the databases start to show up and show Norms at that age that are really stable in Behavior and the kid generally is functional enough to have the ability to participate with yes assessments appropriately you may want to you know map or work on a kid who's 18 months old right after their parents got the autistic diagnosis and they're freaking out because you can do something yeah different yeah and if you're doing a longitudinal map I like to do it when the first developmental phase slows down which is at uh six and a half and then do it again after the Left Right hemisphere divide and the language divides we're talking about like nine or 10 yeah so when you're going to grade school you recommend get an EEG yeah yeah qeg and a CPT side by side never one of the other I I'm I'm I strongly believe they they should always be done together so if they play sports or looking out for a learning disability it just seems like common sense but uh yeah like you don't have to do something about ADHD but if you understand how you're retention works or sleep or stress works now you can scaffold behavior and strategies around support so just knowing it's just data just knowing how somebody's build can help a lot yeah oh we got a comment here Jody cooh hoot any thoughts and neuro feedback for Oliva Pon sarabella atrophy opca wow not familiar with that but if it's Pon sella it's GNA not have paramal neurons as part of its physiology instead it will have you you have a hard time affecting with classic EEG neuro feedback because there's no EEG so you'd have to do INF for low in for slow or blood flow training so my hunch is what I would do is find somebody who works very very well with um pots with metabolic with disautonomia phenomena because now we're talking about potentially life-threatening brain stem phenomena and they may have some tools for helping but my guess is you're talking about INF for low INF for slow to affect that if you can affect that with neur feedback Anthony can you read our V VJs I'm trying to get caught up and we'll go back yeah which parts of the brain do you find to be the source of meltdown shutdowns in autistic kids everything yeah there there are many I think you're probably gonna get a different uh perspective or different lens I should say none of them are going to be incorrect um on this I mean one of my a very strong theories on autism is you're just work you're looking at hyperarousal everywhere so bottom line is you can go in anywhere and in theory be able to assist with that um so this is where again the the mapping is so important um there are some Universal spots where you know almost always uh location FZ is implicated in terms of rigidity um but other than that it's very highly individualistic I'm sure any of us could run with that who wants to take the ball now pun intendance well well you will see you know it's also not just a different answer from each of us but like you put 10 autis of people in a room and you got 15 different answers you know based on their brains yeah there's a lot of variability for the uh for the individual but you will see in a classic autistic population with social deficit this phenomena of emotional veence changing the laterality so in not autistic brain socially intact queuing when you show a lot of happy exciting yummy repetitive phenomena you get a left side light up of the AMD an activation to the left and when you show a lot of Avers adversive things and scary things and icky things the right lights up but if you have somebody who's got a an autistic classic autistic presentation with social deficit any intense emotion good or bad lights up the right one right so you have this a asymmetric lateralized uh avoidance phenomena it's a stress phenomena caused by intense social input um yeah like Dr swingle said you're talking about varietal areas for the sensory and the social frontal areas for the uh conflict resolution Central pre-central areas for inhibitory tone so it's kind of everywhere yeah yeah so I and just going really positive here that this is also why I would say neurop feedback is is one of the most successful interventions for change uh in the population with with autism because there's just there's so much we can see and so many um venues for uh for brain change or or entry into a therapeutic process so uh Kym what would be a good way of finding your ideal threshhold should you first find your Baseline threshold and then set a reward inhibit from question mark that works yeah you set you you you measure the signals the measure the parameter the thing you're trying to train let it stabilize and it should kind of hang out in a certain amplitude if it's a you know amount of brain w for instance or if it's a speed it should should stabilize in a Range then yeah you can parameterize as a function of that as a percentage of that very classic way to do it it works just fine and I would say if you want to up your game never never do auto never do automatic do manual ual because you'll find that some individuals will be significantly more responsive at a different percentage very very important have another one from VJ yeah yeah Pete I can go he says VJ says how does dissociative identity disorder show up in qegs seriously it's very strange you actually can get a different QED signature based on Alters I I've worked a lot with the just in impatient crisis environments and I eventually saw brain uh and I I it's it's a very loaded topic did right like there's some question of does it exist and is it a real thing and I am I've worked with lots of people that have that diagnosis and I still don't know yeah but I will say I've seen lots of brain Maps or a handful of brain maps of people with different Alters presenting and you see different things in the brain I've seen different attention laterality seen handwriting shift you've seen different hemispheres going to dominant Alpha speeds so I don't know what it is uh but and I I would say that if anything VJ the qeg might not be a good tool for did because it breaks the assumptions of qeg which are that we're picking up traits not States yeah um I I I I did a bunch of brain Maps recently on a a psychic psychics keep finding me it's kind of funny I have psychics all the time finding me now and I have this pet psychic who uh channels pets you know she she reads your pet for you and tells you what's happening and she did a brain map for a fun experiment and did two different channeling experiences and and altered her brain in I'm like wow that's really interesting and she did a bunch of Nur feedback with us and then did another experiment looking at Baseline change like you do with brain maps and did her her exercises again for her little channeling experience and she changed her brain the exact same way voluntarily the second time two months later really rare to be able to change your EEG by something with your mind and yet people can do it sometimes and that is sort of I think what's happening in did is such a huge State shift that you're getting a trait marker shift but I don't understand it I got a quick Quicky how close are we to using automatic artifact re uh removal with all the software out there or do we have just going through the EG taking out bad data how close are we to saying okay let me just hit the automatic button or do we have to get to qeg bit Maps or something else I'm just saying to clean you have software out there that says but here Pete's Pete's pushing my buttons I I'll jump uh I am very very very anti- um artifacting programs you you miss so so much in fact a lot of the work that I'm known for is I study the outlier you know study many things that look like artifact or look odd that we re remove and you can find some really fascinating things especially for your last resort client so there is information in the um in the the unknown variables um and just because note my term that it's an unknown variable not necessarily an artifact now I'm not talking about 60 Cycle or 50 cycle interference let's just get that out of the way um but I think um pardon the Judgment but those of who really really are good at our game um Do It um U you know manually or we watch the we watch um as the um the automatic programs do it and we'll we'll bring things back in or put things out so I'm not against the combo uh but if you just want to press a button and and and do it you're you're missing so much if not doing your job well so we're not talking about data or or cleaning data with ICA that's another hot button topic like I'm I'm not a huge fan of doing mathematical modifications to get clean data but I'm okay with running a threshold amplitud threshold or blink threshold through some automatic software to tag it and then visually scanning it to make sure it didn't do something wrong but you have to match the EG to the same analysis methods of the findings you're looking for always so it's you know it ends up being always imperfect so I don't know yeah is there an open source where all this data can go we have all these eegs that are done not now well a lot of it is just garbage you know I'm not not going to name uh certain software products but you know you're you're getting all kinds of things dumped in and you know we have five million eegs of eegs of what you maybe the top hurts of 30 yeah you want to translate for that for people John no no no get the joke they shouldn't be in the biz I'm not I'm not looking for a lawsuit oh that's a good point uh the uh disclaimer please check with your primary care physician first this is for entertainment and information purposes only the HD recorder says how effective are bio Explorer and bio era Co they're not effective they're programs yeah they work fine but they're either I have I have strong opinions I've used bio Explorer a lot and you know they're really good tools but yeah they're not easy to use no um bio Explorer is super long in the tooth has some issues because of it it runs on several layers of crft and and translation and timing so you can break the training process and make it go away if you don't have a good Windows computer and you haven't you done too much with the software but it works okay bio error works better but it's not runnable out of the box it's meant to build other pieces of software with which is what Signet is and there's a couple in in Germany that use bio era as their underpinnings so they're they're step in my opinion they're a step up from things like open EEG and open BCI BCI 2000 and mat lab for build for rolling your own but you kind of have to already know how do neuro feedback yeah to do all those roll your own things and I'm a big fan of like just buy the software that works gets out of your way it doesn't cost you that much and then you can not worry about the software because there's no really we get this question every week every you know every one of us gets this question what's the best device what's the best software I can do really good ner feedback with almost anything that gives me the option to make control decisions of what's happening right and I and and somebody who doesn't know how to do neuro feedback can't do neuro feedback with the best tool set right well Dr Andrew 80 80% of your Biz is remote like how what's the easy some you got have to have something easy so what do you use I use eager I use eager because it gets out of the way it's pretty straightforward it's a granddaddy in the field at this point and it's relatively you know kept up so doesn't over complicate I do make some uh sacrifices like I haven't gotten into infra slow or infra low I don't do zcore training mostly because the efficacy I haven't found to be all that better in that with those tools so I haven't bothered to to use them but you know eager is a tool that that other uh software BJ agrees um other software um sorry other providers have learned their neuro feedback chops on and it's a tool set that Howard lightstone for years he would go to all the meetings every year and talk to Providers and say what are you trying to do what would you like to do and he would do like market research at all the conferences every year go back and develop every winter and would have new software with these really bizarre features so if you dig around and E eager it's got these like Swiss Army knife bits where you're like what does that tool do I've never seen that tool before but if you want to do something you know like Rob coin's four Channel multivar coherence or complicated you know sum indifference Channel training classic stuff you can do it and eager gives you the signal on the screen and it gives you threshold and it shows the metaphors of training in a very straightforward way and that's important when teaching somebody about thresholding or signal quality or filtering or game triggering it's important that' be simple enough and that may be some of the complaints I have around some of the sign some of the uh bio era built software packages is they don't actually expose enough of the process sometimes to the individual and they're great for the one thing the one screen the the the the IP the Special Sauce that they're exposing but they don't necessarily create a tool set that's broad I mean one point Signet had regular band training in it you could do alpha Theta band training or INF foro kind of stuff nowadays it's just the INF for low stuff basically so it's it's more business that's doing that than the actual tools um but I I just use um eager so VJ VJ is an eager user as well he's he's given us given some props to eager I not I don't own eager I just use it I I may be their biggest Customer because I have so many clients using it I don't know but uh sounds like they need some makes lose some friends and make some enemies here but I I find that um you know the better equipment you really really or the the best equipment you really really need to know your craft to use it um and I I think we've said this before that we're we're kind of lacking uh the simpler reliable um valid that has good reliability and and and and good validity um so that that's that's the bane of our our discipline I'd say to this day well we have another question from VJ he's keeping us going here VJ yeah thanks VJ he said uh I'm curious uh if people could talk about psychedelics and mental health or she or she well IJ is probably male but we'll see uh if you could all talk about psychedelics and mental health and how neuro feedback can interact with it I've noticed multiple LIC ative effect in trauma an emotional processing don't be shy is it a plasticity answer is that what we're what we think what what do you guys think some of you are more in the therapeutic you know clinical space than I am I'm I'm gonna put my my qualification here that I I am very much um on whoops not just on the fence I'm I'm I'm not into this stuff um I've seen uh a lot of people just report it's changed their world and I've also seen you know the Other Extreme that people go into psychosis um episodic psychosis and never recover so it's so much in their infancy and these are our brains I don't agree with playing with them we don't know enough now that's my qualifier now one of the things I wish Jay gunman were here um because he you know he can share and show some data but what I think is happening with a lot of these things is we get a scrambling effect um and for some people with very very um severe depression severe anxiety Etc you give the brain a good scramble and it resettles back somewhere better but I think with other people you give the brain a good scramble and it resettles somewhere worse and I don't know what the percentages are but of course we're hearing a lot more about the ones that are the positive resc scramble and I don't know whether that's a mark marketing effect or um or it really is helping a lot of people but you know you many of these things as well if you just go on a good high with a really nice person holding your hand especially you know there's certain classes of the psychedelics that that just help with a lot of positive emotionality and if you're having a lot of difficulty accessing the positive and you have a supportive individual helping you access it I'm I'm I mean I get why some people are into it um but I'm I'm a middle-age conservative I was going to say an old conservative I'm not there yet I've just I've just seen too much damage I've just seen too much damage it's also not just the really you know quote unquote party drug psychedelics that are moving now into uh therapeutic usage you can go to Reddit and look at a whole subreddit on damage caused by Lion's man because it's bringing up plasticity too high and you get an indiscriminate plasticity resulting in what looks a lot like post effects and anhedonia and depersonalization simply by bringing up plasticity super high so indiscriminate plasticity isn't really something you need and generally we don't need more if you do meditate do your feedback do an ice bath etc those are more controllable I do think VJ there is some rule for role for psychedelics in psychedelic assisted Psychotherapy for trauma I think that's a very interesting place here in La there's a lot of that going on with psychotherapist using MDMA or using psilocybin for guided Psychotherapy and I've had lots of people over the years map their brain before and after they're burning man or they're this or they're that and you don't see a lot of after effects if somebody escapes damage from a drug of abuse or a drug of party later on you don't see any effect oh I used heroin 20 years ago a lot Andre I've seen I've seen massive massive diffuse Alpha sitting around sometimes I can see and and when someone goes through psychedelic assisted Psychotherapy I sometimes see them go through massive healing trajectories in a weekend as if they've done rebuilding of their brain over years and years it's rare and most of the time when someone looks for those effects don't see it in the EEG and they're like convinced like well how you feel doesn't really impact the EEG at this level I know but I've had a life transforming experience everything is glowing and like looks like you're a little more awake guys maybe Jay it is bad that Jay's not here because he likes to talk about I've heard from him several times that if you have beta spindles present in the EG or subclinical epileptic discharges you're more likely to have a bad trip and you are more likely to have uh adverse negative long-term events and I do see to backup Mario I have met individuals who told me my brain has never been the same since I touched LSD that is one that I hear that often about I think Jay has even said the arousal level matters more with LSD I think I've heard him say and um the other thing I want to say is there was just a big um trial that came out I'll post it in the chat is from Medscape it said that these anti-depressants I'm sorry the psychedelics uh have about like a 54% response rate I just shared it what they said is that's better than any depressant but it's not that much better Martin ARS when he prevented at cisson last year um at Jay's conference he even showed even when you use biomarker and EG biomarker to match it we don't know all of them yet but when he used one basically he said all these treatments like TMS anti-depressants psychedelics ketamine they all cluster around 50% even when he used his biomarker he said it's kind of interesting I don't know why that is anyway just that was the research I I wanted to get out there yeah the other thing is the stick Factor um Ju Just in terms of how long people supposedly feel better it doesn't it doesn't have a big stick Factor really I've heard the opposite I've heard that when they test people say up to six months even one or two years that they're still reporting now there's a range but I've heard six months fairly consistently Mari okay our frame our frame Anthony is decades well yeah I I'm not for the go out and use that I just yeah that's our go our our goal here is decades long sticking factors yeah you're right yeah yeah yeah no I've heard around three months and then it's gone yeah okay okay sorry about that oh here's a here's a great question Dr Marie will like will things like neuro feedback completely get rid of ADHD or does it just help you deal with it better well sure both yeah depends the panel is in unison oh no maybe sure yeah you know it you know we don't want to change personality right we want to help you know people to pay better attention to be able to do what they want to do um but there's certain components of quotee unquote ADHD that can you know this this curiosity this Innovation is fabulous you don't want to change that what you want to do is change the ability to follow through on that Curiosity and Innovation right hey football at it here's a little secret just between us I put an early link to tomorrow's show where Jade gunkelman does an hour screen share on ADHD don't tell anyone it's just for you okay perfect yes all right VJ more a little more discreet though you can reliably get a couple of standard deviations of improvement in impulsivity and in attention reliably across people most of the time in core features that are not the diagnosis of ADHD but are some of the core resources that do get stuck it is reliable across people it does usually change it does usually stay changed it can just take a few months to get there but to credit what Dr Mari said the psychosocial aspects of ADHD are more subtle than that and you may still have this procrastination and rejection sensitivity and some other aspects that are not quite as straightforward as gross resources of executive function but you can change the executive function if you need to what I like to share with my clients is generally speaking we get around a 50% change um and for most people 50% is more than enough to uh achieve everything you need to or want to achieve scholastically please so that you can go on Ticky boo you know the other thing about that is well you don't want to be in therapy for years and years and years and years especially if you're a child because you're really going to start to believe something is wrong with you my favorite ADHD client is a client that you see for certain short period of time and when you meet the family coincidentally or what not 10 years later the client the child has no idea who the heck you are and that they ever had a problem that is my idea L ADHD client Absolutely I'll go one step further the client that never even knew they were ADHD and came in because they were distracted and you never had to diagnose them and you just taught them how their brain worked and help them move it and they felt empowered because they just got more control over their brain by looking at it that's one step even Beyond yeah the the brief intervention I would say just to just to give a little little oh we I think we well let's get into our beautiful stories I mean I I've worked with children that have come in for ADHD or learning deficits and you see these like oh my gosh talk about frontal lobe deregulation um you know and you know what that's going to start to look like in adolescence if it hasn't if that liability hasn't expressed itself um but to be able to go in and correct that uh before it expresses itself wow is there a power there because we know what they they avoided um nobody else does but we know that's powerful talking on bio era or bio Explorer when are you guys going to do on how you should use with well k ym h probably not but we will hook you up with somebody will know something about it unless you want to do a screen share and how to use the product is that what kym's asking for Anthony yeah I think so they want to how to but that's up to you the thing is learning how to use the software does doesn't teach you to do neuro feedback right I can teach you to set up a a protocol in BIO bio Explorer or eager or brain master or you know J&J go back a little bit anything you want why is all those interfaces look like they're built by Engineers they are they were yeah I mean all the Nerf is Cutting Edge C of 19 you know 85 basically at this point um yay Excel yay Excel it really does look like like Google wrote it wrote the code and it's just engine well we have no pressure on the on the on the uh Marketplace to build something better it's a niche yeah it's expensive you don't you don't buy lots of copies I mean I buy hundreds of copies of eager a year and that's weird like I'm I'm a weird outlier in the field most you know so there's no real pressure how many copies does Howard lightstone or Lars sell of eager a year total how what's the install base th000 what's the install base that Tom Kera has for brain Master a few thousand how many copies of neuro optimal are out there you know like it there's just not a lot of pressure in the marketplace to create uh better software and so if you can charge three or four $5,000 for a single license and people buy it h there's no real pressure so I I think that's what's happening it's much easier to make hardware and software now than it was um a few years ago and and the hardware side is caught up where you can get an amp now for a few hundred bucks that's as good as an amp was for a few thousand you know 20 years ago the software is the same software 20 as it is as it was 20 years ago there's almost no movement and there's no Market pressure we need someone who has yeah Vision or yeah who's that hungry to take the marketplace over you got now Andrew you got me thinking here now ai evidently can write code I don't know squat about writing code and I understand somebody some coder says oh he I write a hell of a piece of code for you it can yeah I'm wondering if that's a PO ask well that's believe me I'm not the guy I'm not the one of those things where you have to know how to build the thing to build it without writing code you have to know how to write the code to build it anyways yeah dat you know D garbage in garbage out that's my issue with AI as well like what is AI building the code upon as well right we've got to be really cautious about that yeah well I'm gonna get on my Soap Box again just in terms of you know a lot of the program that are coming up you know the software it looks really good it looks really really really really really pretty and really really really flashy but any day Kym I'm just blowing you little crap don't worry about it you should see my grammar all right i' work I've worked with Dr Hill on this but have any of the other people been able to talk about meditation and their feedback and how they can amplify each other yeah that's some VJ vj's busy today well any of us could take it I mean the answer is yes yes and yes I noticed DJ's really into amplification like it's it's not enough to do one therapy he wants to you know multiply but go on guys he has your number VJ Anthony has your number well I mean right at the beginnings you you know one of the key things that this was used for is to figure out how can we get you know normal people to get their brains in the states that yogis took 30 years to get you know we could we could have a person get there in 30 days so you bet you know when you can literally be on a feedback loop uh to see where your brain is going you can really potentiate meditative States hugely so now this is another one where people might disagree I also clearly can identify individuals where meditation would be torture and I tell them don't do it you're you're not ired this way um you know there I say there per certain individuals who need quiet to quiet and then there are other individuals who need arousal to quiet um and many of us busy brained people you know sitting in a room um okay I'm exaggerating a bit that that's that's that's an element of torture right so so know who you are um and know if a state of quiet is really really helping uh to calm the autonomic nervous system etc etc or if it's actually that level of quiet is contributing uh to your arousal had to put some spice in there no very spicy Anthony you got that one well I heard oh this is a new one um just real quick I heard Nikki uh wit rdge again say uh at aapb one time he said uh he thinks that maybe people who are high performers they get into a meditative State and they they it raises their High beta their perfectionist that's what it was and so he's wondering if the pressure to they treat treat meditation like it's a a task and you've told them to Performance so they have to do it perfectly so just I'm wondering if those are the people who get over aroused to speak to um Stan's question here uh what do you think nikk can't sleep what yeah exactly what do you think about doing low-level laser therapy before or after a neuro feedback session I'm not biting this when any of you do you mean actual lasers or we talking infra infrared LEDs lowle lasers be a little bit unpredictable that's the problem it's like you're you're doing a lot and you know lens makes a low lever laser device now uh as a secondary stimulation device for the laser light and I've you can do some weird things with uh laser light I don't know I think it's Stan it's probably a little bit unpredictable both John and I maybe others here will use Photo modulation red light therapy um and I do that four I use it kind of like I use what's the difference between the two well photobiomodulation is streaming red light into the brain in this case and it's 10 depending on the device it runs between you know 1100 and up to about uh 1,800 nanometers and most of them are 1170 1180 so red light and the theory is and I think there's some good science here is that the red light in that frequency range interacts with the cytochrome receptor or something in the in the mitochondria and causes the electron transport chain to spin faster so essentially you Goose the production of ATP by giving red light to the tissue and several of the devices out there go a lot further than just that basic stimulation of red light and we'll do uh entrainment driven stuff or quadrant driven stuff John and I are both playing with those devices clinically uh supporting people and I'm I'm getting really interesting strong potentiated effects uh when people combine those two um combine PBM and Nur feedback very similar to how you you can accelerate effects when you combine ner feedback with Hyperbaric medicine or with HG or with some other technology so I'm still yeah Andrew just directly to that point I still struggle with is a couple of times a week putting the helmet on somebody's head really that effective you know I've asked the people who make the machine they go oh hell yeah and I'm like part of me is like well for you and I maybe because we're priming the system and then training the system so we might be able to get somewhere but no it's a short answer I mean it's kind of like Nur feedback where it really should probably be three times a week and and right my clients I'm combining it with at this point I'm having all the clients who want to do photo by modulation just purchase their own device because yeah they usually have to have a big enough reason for it either Peak Performance or suffering where they're going to need it for a long time right right and I'm having them use it four or five days a week I have some clients using it twice a day right um but I have other clients that I have to ease in they get overtrained by it you know mix it with feedback exhausts them so there's still a pretty wide range of responses even with a light neuronic thanks Dan it's exactly what we're talking about yeah neic a little bit on overtraining uh as well like that's one of the overt I would say dangers of a lot of you know home home protocols um for sure you know whether you know vitamins home vitamins you know how many do you take before you can actually poison yourself with the vitamins yeah if a th000 milligrams is good 3000's got to be better yeah well I had a client who was taking netal cysteine she like oh my God this stuff's amazing thank you for pointing out my brain map that I had this anterior singulate an NAC is amazing and she started taking more and more of it because it was so awesome and she was one of those rare people with a sulur metabolism issue and after about two weeks was like nausey at and feeling really activated and NAC is like the most innocuous substance out there used for cognition but every so often yeah right things don't mix and so more is not always better yeah just I mean to get back to stand yeah more can be not good so yeah you gota we ease into this I'm sure Andrew you do the same thing you you start slow do a couple of minutes of just glow you know just the basic non- pulsated see how the client feels about it you ask them afterwards you ask them the next day next session and just sort of ease into perhaps you know frequency based pulsations it's a tough one this is gonna be a free-for-all here whoever's got the best sales person learn how to read the brain Maps that's all that yeah you can you can use any tool you can do any flavor n feedback you can do any you can you can adapt your style to be skillful under any circumstances if you understand the brain adequately and you will be forever locked into recipe books and silly pieces of software if you don't who do I my $1,500 to get a mentor get a mentor do I qcb or the school of Neurotherapy go get a PhD look at a lot of raw EEG look at a lot of raw signals I think that's the key once you learn the raw EG Then I then I support the Liberty to I I was going to say play with anything but I think everybody here knows me I'm not saying play but you can you can really use any piece of equipment once you know what you're doing right right so that's what I'm saying get a get a good Mentor who will teach you to know what you're doing and then the world's your oyster how do you get a good Mentor though you go to Google and there's sponsored ads all over the place you don't know what the hell you're doing it's who do I give my $1,500 to and who do I pay pay $200 an hour to Mentor me how do I find towards bcia mentors you know there there's a base level of um of knowledge testing there um and I would also see you know what names are popping up uh that that don't use box program what names are popping up who say you don't who don't say you don't need to know what you're doing to do this um a bad sign when someone says you don't have to understand the to the training yeah so that that's a little bit of a red flag perhaps yeah yeah no I think the you know the same uh names circulate in terms of um master trainers or Master practitioners um and all of us have slightly different methods and slightly different uh pieces of equipment and our favorites we all have favorites I mean I I I share very openly I'm I'm an amplitude and um um yeah primarily an amplitude trainer you and frequency trainer yeah uh it's he says uh is there any relation between beta hyp hyper coherence rather and intelligence seems like every High performer in Tech has some symptoms of [Laughter] aspir abely there is a relation between sped up Alpha and beta hyper groher yeah and fast Alpha is one of the biggest drivers of IQ so it's there but it's not causitive you can you can have fast Alpha without having beta hyper coherence you can have beta hyper coherence without having fast Alpha but they are correlated there's a way to get from one to the other yeah we have to be really really cautious I'm I'm gonna go to the other end you know it's like every uh addict is walking around uh with a whole lot of beta in the occipital region okay but majority of Elite athletes also are because it could be turned into drive so you know when you're 13 years old what is around you you know what hook does that beta catch if that hook catches heroin versus if that hook catches soccer right or swimming or or something the other thing is most of um uh I would say high performers have you know really really high high beta beta ratios okay um and if you don't have an objective um you're you're just extreme OCD but if you do have a project and an objective you know you write programs and books and whatnot in four or six months so uh you know I I kind of talk about you know be careful what you wish for you know if we talk about like the same um brain wave pattern we can see an extreme productivity as well as an extreme anxiety so uh it's a it's a really this is why I'm a True Believer yeah we follow our normative databases and our clinical databases but you also have to look at what the person is doing and if that brain works with their lifestyle if that works with their family Dynamic etc etc and be really really cautious about what you train up and what you train down for for what objective or what purpose I mean it's a not just a science as an art in that regard we're we're at time everyone I'm I'm sure you guys are pounding to table and are very unhappy uh John mecr Anthony Ramos Dr Marie swingle and Dr Andrew Hill all your contact information will be in the details uh okay VJ okay hold on VJ says just want to give a moment of thanks suffer a lot of my life cptsd autism psychosis nerve feedback change and save my life bless you all for contributing to this field BJ thank you my friend we're trying to get the word out who knows what Google's algorithm's going to trip over maybe this say two is concussion hey look what they're talking about that's right hopefully it's it VJ was on my God I gotta watch that video vj's on it thank you thank you for your contributions and then the panelists you know we do the show tomorrow if anybody's interested Jay will be around tomorrow Dr Marie I I I hopefully you'll be around we we're using that show to do a continuation of this show so if there any questions that pop up we'll address more of them there sounds good every everybody have a great night thank you so much peace be with y'all thanks Pete Bye by all right