NeuroNoodle Live Mental Health & Neurofeedback Q&A: Expert Panel Discussion | 10/2 6pm CST

there for years for one storm I'm not not exaggerating so and they'll do everything from they'll build homeless shelters I mean he's literally been in charge of building a homeless shelter after a storm in the Panhandle so I guess there's all kind of uh subsidies or something you can get but I I personally have not had to you know partake fortunately so yeah somebody so I saw a piece on the news where somebody had lost their home and across the street you know were still cleaning up from a hurricane from two years ago just it takes so long to get this stuff out and rebuild crazy and there's a controversy because insurers had been leaving State of Florida and and when they're not there the state takes care of it and so you start to maybe you know sometimes ask the question of well should we really be paying people to live in places that are not conducive to to human life that we know they'll just get blown down um so there's probably insurance I don't know yeah that's happening here in California where people are just you know the insurers are bailing out of fire danger zones they're just not insuring the house I don't I don't blame them how many losses can you take in after a while somebody rebuilds a house and it burns down three years later burns down again after a while you gotta go you know what this is not a good business model or or we have things that are not in that are not covered like there's those landslides and pass the Robles entire neighborhoods that are like sliding off the side of the yeah you know we're waiting for California to uh break off we're only gonna lose like the last 20 feet that's the thing it's like not very much of the there's a there's a shelf and it's only like like a 100 yards worth seriously the rest of it the rest of it pretty pretty attached the last 100 yards though I don't know I thought Pete meant he's waiting for them to break off politically I was like well yeah I mean we we would argue that and there's there is a secessionist movie John we would never argue that I'm not I'm not I'm not entirely adverse to the idea that was good yeah but if we're the biggest you know state I'm getting it's getting old paying taxes supporting Alabama so sorry Alabama sorry is that our opening note tonight that's our opening note our newest Alabama no G it's good thing we're not live oh we're not yet we're not are we are we are I'll get i'll get letters see the clock here Anthony thank goodness you're live you made it through the hurricane what's been going on in your uh technology room no that's very that's very kind to you I um I'm not thinking of Technology stories per se right now but I did send you guys a bunch of uh bunch of news stories just before the program um I don't know we got dyslexia psychedelics uh gut problems in autism I don't know if any of that sounds sexy nothing super uh clickbaity for you no NFL [Laughter] Etc it's like the debate when they toss out so many uh discussion items that you can't up end up answering because there's too many exactly but you know the the uh almost 70% of autism that ended up having GI problems is no surprise uh you you have approximately that many percent that have epileptor discharges and you know the the uh all you have to do is involve the insula which is easily uh uh sometimes the focus so um you you end up with abdominal epilepsy uh GI problems and that that's a you know it's not part of the international classification system but abdominal epilepsy is still recognized you you can punch it into the literature and find there are still Publications about it a fairly recent one from Italy in their uh uh Neuroscience uh Journal over there but it it it's uh as you drop down the homunculus from the the feet on the top down to the hands and then to the face and then the kind of the tongue hangs out and then as you dip into the silvian Fisher the inside of the mouth the fenx but as you get further in the posterior insula is all of your gastrointestinal motility the the the peristalsis is regulated with smooth muscle regulation from there and if you have a discharge there you don't have a striate muscle seizure you have a smooth muscle spasm there you know they're it's quite painful to have a spasm in your intestines so um and it's not an unusual spot for seizures to start and be triggered temporal obsy quite often Kindles from there our case that we published recently on Isabella uh her Aura was uh kind of a distress internal distress and she her seizure started in the left insula spread on the left side and then popped up on the right side with big voltage which they they were ready to cut out right temporal lobe uh it with the neurosurgery when the problem was actually a trigger on the left temporal well left insula but you know neur feedback targeting the focus on it stopped her seizures she's been uh seizure-free you know over seven years and uh graduated with honors from Baylor uh the fouryear tennis scholarship uh she's getting her master's degree she wanted the publication with her name named in the publication of of her case because she's in Communications and she wants to talk about neur feedback uh for epilepsy so anyway how do wait how do you know you got that in your gut versus like you had a bad piece of chicken [Laughter] I'm not trying to be funny but I just want to know that maybe I did There's well for you it's probably a bad piece of chicken you know um what uh uh what you have to do is actually look at the organ that you think might be generating it and if you go to the GI person and they'll they'll uh do testing you'll be scoped sometimes they'll scope up one side and down the other if they can't find something that way you might actually consider looking at the insula to see whether there's a a source there you know next week we we've got suon Summit and Greg shano uh has a specific talk about GI complaints and the insula and uh neur feedback success stories and a brand new referral pattern uh he's receiving uh referrals from GI Specialists who can't find stuff when they do scoping and they they want them to look at the head to see whether they find that funny thing that you find up in the head when you look you know so day are you saying if you if don't see anything looking down look up kind of like in the horror films look at this sounds like he's talking about going Bottom up versus top down it's an interesting topic Jay and thank you for for really digging into that little bit because we just got a kid coming into the clinic who's about 10 years old and you know the parents are you know it's add maybe it's autism they're they're unsure I don't know if they've done proper you know sort of diagnostic criteria I don't question it let's look at the qeg lo and behold the insula low and behold one of the symptoms is is is constipation you know bowel issues you know they're not necessarily connecting it to his brain problems I'm sure they're treating it with you know over-the-counter medicate you know the the junk that get well my K's going to give them with Pepto-Bismol or whatever you know what I'm saying so that's the the go-to and nobody's looking at the brain issue you know turns out this kid has an undiagnosed I can't use the word because I'm not a medical professional but an epileptiform Paris whatever you want to call it Jay you know what I'm saying so you know a sixc long one that was revealed in a in a short can call something paroxysmal if you call it epileptor that's a medic opinion that's I'll One Step Beyond General descriptor thank you for that I'll call it paroxysm paroxysmal is perfectly fine it's a it's a description of something that has a sudden start and a sudden stop and it jumps up double the background activity that's ongoing if you meet that definition it's paroxysmal before we get too complicated here gentlemen um now not you know presuming we haven't seen uh what Jay was saying in the EG I think we need to kiss a lot of these things meaning keep it simple silly sometimes constipation um is a simple expression of somatic or a somatic expression of anxiety okay so you know before we get too complicated let's rule out the basics uh the other again I am not an MD I am not a a nutritionist but also magnesium deficiency so just a little magnesium supplement can do wonders um for for juvenile or or you know constipation throughout the life of span so some of these simple things uh you want to rule out before we get to the complex ones I always say try The Simple Solution first or simplest solution first and then elevate it they uh yeah if somebody's got a gastrointestinal complaint they usually don't go to the EEG lab first I'll say that yeah but a lot of people just you know where would you put the cap you know I am wondering how much cap catching yeah okay we're really digressing is there some overlap between the the mechanism of um abdominal seizures and abdominal migraines because some of the symptoms sound similar and I'm wondering if there's a similar driver yeah top down you know vagel or in fact when you look at migraine you get a high percentage of those that complain of migraine have EP up to form discharges in the EG and respond well to an anticonvulsant Topamax is quite often given it's an anticonvulsant but it's most commonly given to people with migraine do you mean abominal migraines are are epileptiform or I don't know that all of them are but it's common for people that have migraine as a complaint super not just abdominal but migraine uh uh the pounding headache of of migraine um and and when they look uh you have to look at the EG if there's paroxysms they'll they're probably more responsive to an anticonvulsant than they would be to the sumpton the the vascular medications now there's a whole bunch of new uh meds for uh migraine that have come out but one of the biggest mistakes you might make for migraine is uh uh they're they're doing BOTOX for migraine uh uh but it it's um Botox is not for vascular at all it's for muscle and you it's risky uh you can have uh migration of of the the Toxin and have a gomber like side effect which is no fun you know um and it it can trigger autoimmune issues so you know not not uh not necessarily a great option oh good lord I I don't know I have no idea if this connects to anything but I was watching a video of one of the dancers on Dancing With the Stars whatever one of those shows are getting Botox injections in his armpits to stop him from sweating yeah I was just oh my God I I'm perfectly willing to watch somebody sweat while they dance it seems like a natural byproduct of the activity I was like how bad is it is it dripping I I was like it seemed like a far far way to go and talking about migration I had no idea it's very very common now you know you know we used to talk you know when did this term come out the male metrosexual okay um and the the and all of the New Groom routines um and and this is one of them and um yeah I I I don't know our world is getting weird you this you saw the same video I did I can see I can see wrinkles and and a scar you know so no but I did I didn't know that I didn't know that Botox could migrate that's that's interesting so it's not as localized as people think no nobody shares that you know I I would if I were a doctor to connect this back to autism guys there's a study here that well there's several that show that women who receive Botox injections suffer reductions to their empathy and they think that is directly related to losing the ability to mimic facial expressions but it becomes a perceptual and further there's a study I'm going to put it in the chat it even says that the losing the ability to mimic facial expressions uh reduces me suppression which as Jay has talked about is one of the primary uh and pan one of the primary autism phenotypes and I'm going to throw in a huge one here I've spoken about this before I jump up and down scream left right and Center young mothers okay in terms of thwarting the ability of a child to read facial expressions and feel safe if you are a young mother never never never never get BOTOX can I if I can be as as as yeah cancel if you want you're screwing up the development of your child um and so many of these women do not know this it's not quote unquote their fault they are clueless and I think this is just a horrible horrible issue uh with within professions that promote Botox without realizing what they're doing to the development of children of individuals with botox to the interpersonal relationships whether it's friendships whether it's Partnerships you know that good old [ __ ] face when your partner always has [ __ ] face when your mother always has [ __ ] I'm not going to be genderist when your father always has you face I don't know Advocate Devils though I mean think about what are we doing here to our interpersonal relationships under the guise of not having a few uh wrinkles I mean everybody please let's get back to aging well yes but with with dignity with Grace and not screwing up our interpersonal relationship you've seen the cune that is the same exact face Botox happy Botox sad angry Botox fearful and the the problem with botox as an actress or actor is it reduces your ability to emote yeah and U uh uh a neurologist in Southern California uh David hubard uh MD a very old friend of mine uh developed an alternative to Botox that actually goes after the real problem which isn't really the motor neuron it's the muscle spindle that that holds muscle tone which is not innovated with the muscle motor neuron at all so Botox blocks the motor neuron but the problem is the muscle spindle and uh being a neurologist uh there's known drugs that can block that are sympathetic blocking agents uh you just had to Target it so he wired up a syringe with everything insulated except for the very tip and you could palpate for the muscle spindle uh and basically if you touched it you would hear it on the speaker uh because the person was grounded and this this would complete it and you'd hear the muscle spindle fire and that told you you were on Target and you give the syringe a little tap and you just turned off the muscle spindle so you could literally get rid of the uh uh excessive tone without stopping the ability to to emote you still have full use of the muscle very now it's a very expensive uh approach and and he took it through the second level of FDA trial and sold it uh and uh made enough money to buy uh the applied fmri Center he bought the Tesla the Seaman scanner uh three Tesla scanner and had it installed in a building in San Diego with the intention of using it for feedback not as a standard MRI that has an applied fmri uh installation and uh it it was a fairly New Concept to to train uh the anterior singulate uh inside the uh MRI itself using fmri uh so uh he he afforded that uh by selling off this uh approach to a drug company that ends up owning it can neural feedback improve comprehension km wants to know Kym are you a college kid is it midterms coming up comprehension comprehension that yeah not by next week semantic declarative memory is related to the alpha frequency tuning uh if you're if you if your Alpha's tuned appropriately you have really good recall but you have to have it in there already to recall it you can't just uh tune for memory and create a memory of something you didn't learn so but they're taking riddling dig can we do digital riddling you know rlin reduces fronto Central Theta it's a dopamine deficiency that that's being fixed by the dopamine reuptake inhibitor of the rlin methylphenidate uh uh so so it's a good match for fronto Central slow content due to dopamine issues and that's not uncommon in a in the add population because of the DAT genetics uh dopamine transferase is an enzyme that strips away dopamine from the striatum so it's it's like having a leak and the the methylphenidate stops the leak leak so you end up having an appropriate amount of of uh dopamine and I'm going to take this down a level from J because I think we're gonna lose everybody with This brilliant brilliant mind um but in terms of just piggybacking a little bit yes it'll help with comprehension but you have to be able to get a little bit of processing uh of the information before you can you can prove the comprehension but neuro theapy 100% will help with the ability to receive information process information interpret information and and uh spew it back out you bet so there's there's a discussion here on screen basically with a little bit about uh uh clearing some interference and there was a nice study in salsburg Austria on SMR frequency training uh and then testing the visual event related potential and the the uh SMR uh training got rid of a samata sensory interference with the visual event related potential it cleared the interference basically so there there are things that can be done to stabilize the brain to cut out some interference and SMR is one of those things uh when it's AI in the proper locations and with with other frequencies generally inhibited as well but the the SMR training ends up being uh beneficial for uh semantic and declarative memory consolidation and sleep as well so uh there are good things you can do to assist your uh uh comprehension and memory uh but they take time you know SMR training has a learning curve you don't it's not something like a pill you pop in if it's digital riddlin it's a real slow release so it is pretty f compared to most things that work on the brain though I mean as things that make changes in the brain we make changes in the orders of multiple standard deviations in a few months against the average you know population score that's massive for human transformation we get Blas about it we're like oh well you know yeah this person only had only had a little bit of change in their ADHD and only it took six weeks okay whatever but like it's still life transformative for many people and we get you know I used to work in traditional acute mental healthare for like a long time where all we saw was just paliative care and suffering and revolving doors and then neura feedback it feels like cheating still 25 years later I still am like oh okay yeah it's a really good point Andrew we do take this for granted because we do it every day so thank you for sharing it that way because we we get comfortable with our own skill set and we don't know how just how badly people are suffering for literally for decades sometimes and the fact that we can make change ches in people in a matter of months I mean you think about it months is fast for the brain exactly it's remarkably fast to the person yeah to the person who's looking to increase their comprehension and recall you know first you have to study that's a real thing and neuro feedback will help you and assist you in putting all of that together with more speed and accuracy yeah but you still have to do the actual work you have to read the books the textbooks there's no there's no cheat here it's not you're it's not going to turn you into a speed reader where you're going to just memorize your volume is material overnight it doesn't work that way it's going to increase your Your Capacity to do better at your giving your own god-given gifts this is where the gym analogy is is always always the best analogy I find okay where if if you want you know a little bit of strength okay you want to build your muscles it takes so many repetitions over so much time to get a certain look or certain effect you know and if you're somebody who has underdeveloped Ved muscles versus somebody um who is in a healthy range who wants to get a Little Bit Stronger versus somebody who wants to become a bodybuilder I mean there are all kinds of um goals and um you know how difference in how far we go but also for what reason but it all takes time to to get an effect um and some of it is like physiotherapy again it's corrective and then it sticks but the other thing is if you want to go with the bodybuilding model you know you got to keep on doing this right and we have you know Elite performers whether they're Sports people or Executives that are in on a very very regular basis because they want to keep that high high level um but if you are an individual with you know basic ADHD or a parent of an individual with ADHD yeah I mean we can change the world for that child just enough you I mean we're not changing personality Etc to just make schooling so much more accessible to make a lot of the things that people are having difficulty with easier and as Andrew um said we Chang the world yeah but Rin is so available in colleges and high school and like what's what yeah I know but like it's not though there's a there's a psycho stimulant shortage actually in many countries and the US there's many people on ADHD Forum just crying about not able to get meds for two months straight and they're hunting around calling sevenes looking for generics finally finding something selling it if they'd only spent that two months with us worried about their shortages they think it's partly because wins a point Mari they think it's partly because the DEA has quotas they have caps for um yeah but the other thing is so do you guys know that I have friends who have personally been prescribed uh Aderall AR Ridin but then also benzos to put them asleep at night because they can't go to sleep otherwise yes and I also have friends people that I've known that they uh they share their dose with their friends or they sell it or they abuse it they do it all at once they run out and then they need to go get from a pill Mill or someplace they can get it more of it um and so the the riddlin is not an answer either basically yeah yeah Valley of the Dolls you know the old movie so what happened in that mov the movie that's a very old movie uh amphetamines in the morning and and second all at night uh uh U but um it it's actually actually a good movie if you haven't seen it so but it's old but so am much yeah but I mean that was kind of a movie in a social commentary but I mean what really really bothers me are the numbers of MD and psychiatrists who are actually prescribing this uh as a solution that that really frightens me the other one that we've just touched upon are individuals who um get diagnoses so that they can essentially become drug dealers meaning they're selling it to their friends or at school um and and th that that's just sad I mean if if we're going there also I mean I'm I'm sure you're all aware of pill parties people know what I'm talking about no is there one tonight school kids they they arrive at a party they take meds and they throw them in a bowl and and people just yeah just and people come in just like candy and they they they pick something you know you be surprised not knowing what it is NOP it's an adventure wow sounds like uh Western medicine oh ding ding ding ding well going to benzo dein for just a second because I any I'm sure we've all had I've had any number of clients on both Ridin and benzos yeah that's an extremely common presentation unfortunately W do you feel that you know I read the side of the bo I can read the side of the box like anybody you know the side of the Box clearly says you know what four to six you know four to six weeks or whatever you whatever the number is I'm I'm making it up is there a responsibility on the part of the medical community I mean I know people shop around for different doctors but I've had people who've had legitimately they get the benzo refilled endlessly I had a woman who was 25 years plus on a benzo and I'm just wondering what the ethics anybody's you know I I'm I'm in the Mal pra I'm like sue somebody I I can't I don't even understand how that can happen they're moving they're moving more away from benzo's being prescribed because they know there's problems with benzo as being yeah and they Advance dementia like changes it's not not all good but if we're at a pill party and we're talking about colleges is college and high still taking mushrooms is that better for you than weed I'm going nowhere on that I'm going l Hold on now we're talking about you know creating new Pathways no uncheck plasticity is not a good thing you don't need more plasticity generally okay that's that's a big misapprehension in this biohacking space people micro doing stuff and taking lots of stuff to jack up their plasticity you don't generally need more you need to shape it and if you need more meditate or something I mean you know the goal should the end goal should not be just lubricating your brain into changing people people get into trouble with psychedelics yeah and non psychedelics full full disclosure I tried micro doing and my experience was was amusing let's say it that way I because you're you're dealing with a piece of cardboard soaked in some reputable person provided this so but it's a piece literally a piece of cardboard which I'm cutting up with a razor knife trying to approximate a dosage so you're you're already in in the land of I have no idea what I just took how I have no idea nothing include you in that this was suspicious huh John well no because away your point but this is the way it was delivered to me so I it was a full dose so I said well let me try micro doing so I cut it up into 16 squares or whatever this this infantes piece it's it was ridiculous but I the amusing part was I found myself because I did this every day and I'm meeting with clients and I'm chatting and I'm doing my work and it's just this reputedly was going to be this subliminal boost in my perceptive abilities that's what I was looking for okay I'm sitting with a client I'm sitting with a client chatting you see where this is going already I'm sitting with a client chatting going this out and post if you oh no you have to edit this out I I'll stop the story I'm not Advocate I am not advocating okay I'm not advocating that anybody try this or do it I'm just telling you my drag history back to before LSD was considered illegal right and it was just uh uh owley uh LSD but uh there was I'm met I'm met old Jay there's uh Timothy Scully uh Tim Scully uh uh basically was the chemist behind orange sunshine and there's a very good uh documentary about him the sunshine makers uh uh it it's uh Nick Sans was his partner um uh Tim Scully wanted to make enough LSD to get everybody in the world high on LSD um he created over seven kilos of it and you can imagine since doses are you know fullsize doses are not anywhere close to that you know so but they he he uh ended up obviously being busted he went to to the federal prison uh for uh being the uh originator and chem and um be behind it and actually U wrote his own appeal uh redid the prison library card catalog as he while he was at it and a very bright guy um uh and before he was making acid he built the sound system for the Grateful Dead so he you know he's a an interesting character he he appealed his way out and he's he he he's free and alive and enjoying life in retirement at this point thank goodness tbu does this mean neuro feedback can help with white matter myelination in the brain um it it probably can but there's probably more reliable ways to remyelinate than nerfed back is a short answer I think in in the biohacking space CDP choline cocoline seems to have good research supporting remyelination and there's plausible uh mechanisms whereby Hyperbaric medicine and maybe even photobiomodulation might provide metabolic support there so plus dietary things so I would say all those things will might help you might help the cells grow that you're training with neuro feedback but I don't know if we've ever seen a myelination I can't think of any mechanism with neuro feedback where there's milin there's Publications that have shown white matter change with neur feedback are Mario B aom monreal neurological U two papers uh but more current Dr pan Hy paneda out of San Diego uh were with autism uh they they did neuro feedback and they did DTI uh pre-post DTI Imaging and the neur feedback sculpted the white matter in the areas of the training uh if you look at the Spectra in in uh significant autistic cases where there's Delta in the temporal areas that Delta is associated with white matter change and at the developmental level where you're laying down myin there's a it goes off wrong it's either over or under melinated and either way it's not going to work if you over molinate it turns off a neuron if you undermate it's not really a high-speed neuron uh so uh the the milin has to be done properly and if you see the slow f focus in the temporal lobe left side for language problems right side for the asger Z presentation the training gets rid of that slow content and if you look at the DTI Imaging that paneda did uh we we would expect the correlation of that slow content dropping down to be what he saw as the sculpting of the white matter in the area I also want J when you when you say sculpting for the for the uninitiated listeners are if you look at the diff Imaging image the spots that you're training ended up having the the the uh de deviant excess white matter problem uh resolved okay is it do you think is the mechanism literally just the ex quote unquote exercise of circuit goodness knows what the mechanism might be the fact that they've observed that the fact that they observed it is is astounding you know I'm it wasn't all that long ago I wouldn't have expected white matter to be neur feedback uh responsive in a way but I've seen Delta suppressed and uh that's a reliable finding in the autism spectrum findings that we're working with and uh we we we see you know tremendous uh increase in the function in the area when the Delta drops down the alpha frequency is tuned up you know um you got rid of beta spindling in the area it when things are tuned up right you you you get cognitive functioning that's really you it works and therapies that are oriented towards their disability also start to work you know uh when when the neurological Turf is ready U then the input in therapy into that area ends up being quite useful yeah for any again for anybody listening sorry no just just to follow up on Jay point for one second just that I think is the important element for anybody to know who's looking at neuro feedback as a the as a therapeutic uh uh intervention for themselves or their or their child is It prepares the brain for all of what Jay's referring to all the other therapies that you're doing the occupational therapy the speech and language therapy all of that stuff is going to go more smoothly because the brain is now available to accept the differences and understand how to apply them sorry Mar no we're saying the exact same thing um yeah I'll just piggy back that no Neurotherapy is a potentiator period it it sets up the brain for many many other things another reason why you shouldn't micro do because you'll stop micro doing and start macro doing without knowing it if you do neur feedback awes happen to clients all the time who I didn't finish my punch line that's exactly what happened to me all a sudden I'm like uh oh uh oh it's coming yeah exercising your brain makes all kinds of stuff stronger was a little embarrassing as as Tim Scully said there casionally you touch a hot Beaker and you go oh oh no exactly right exactly right anyway all right since we well first of all we all tell everybody here please check with your primary care physician first because there is nothing here you want to follow this is all entertainment and informational purposes only and the the viewers and listeners Drive the content and since there isn't anything intelligent being asked here I will throw something out there uh but we're going on intelligent consult with your own Shaman this could this could transfer over maybe into tomorrow's show because Jay kind of likes to get in the environment a little bit yeah I saw something and I didn't know this uh leted gasoline do you think that could be behind a lot of the learning problems and all these things that have come up uh in the past you few decades Y and if so whatever the halflife is how can you train away you know from from the lead because that goes in your bones doesn't it uh in fact there's there's a lot of toxicity that ends up being stored in the body either in your fat or in your bones different mat store in different locations um and U you know there there's very few of the things that are out there that you're going to talk about that are going to be good for you uh chlorinated hydrocarbons U you know nasty or or Organo phosphates um you know toxic substances and um yeah uh life is full of it out there yeah there was just a a settlement uh a uh $36 million settlement with a Refinery here in the Bay Area that dumped toxic material from 2018 to 2022 so they paid $18 million for dumping [ __ ] into our air for four years straight that's a cost of doing business yep uh they paid their fine and they're they're free to go on you know uh the but uh they they were basically uh just venting hydrocarbons without uh processing uh not being flared just releasing and uh switching the refinery over from uh refining for gasoline to doing uh vegetable oilbased diesel uh biodiesel U and in that turnover process they talk IFI the community heavy metals you know when you you you go out to your car and there's kind of a dust on it uh that that that dust would re reoccur and reoccur and they they did swipes of it uh very heavy in vadium and that's not that common a thing that you run around finding high high concentrations of vadium other than in catalysts in refineries and things so uh they they they trace back the some of the pollution back to the refinery and that got all of this big investigation going and they found all this release for for your period so thank you Anthony I was wondering where my IQ points went you know they said Gen X does have the most lead in their uh I think it might have been their ha yeah I sure don't yeah yeah well I mean I I remember when I was a kid you know I used to enjoy pumping gas because I like the smell I mean that's kind of scary really kind of scary well can you get those IQ points back if it is having an effect did we did Jay say that I don't the the if you're uh getting lead it ends up being stored long term it's very hard to get it out Mercury as well right J um Mercury is also very difficult to get out but it depends upon what form it's in if it's methylated um you absorb it real deep um anyway the there there are very few toxic substances that are end up being good for you and the the direct uh identification of the method uh for creating the Cancers and so forth are being identified slowly and being denied largely and like cigarette companies denied uh but um you monsanto's Roundup uh and up having extreme uh problems with that they were bought out by uh uh European company just to kind of step away a little bit further from the ownership of the toxicity but liability for right yeah I can I can still buy it in my hardware store yeah it's baffling to me baffling there there are a lot of chemicals that are still for sale in the US that are banned in Europe yeah and they've looked at the chemical nature of something and they they ban it because it's a problem and um and the fact that we don't is a different kind of a problem you know well we're free we're free here say yeah you would hope that the it's a freedom the CDC would end up having some sway based on science but there's a lot of God forbid that oh thank goodness a good question radar Ashwood I have heard certain people in the neuro feedback Community say that you can't train gamma without active electrodes yet in my experience training gamma feels remarkably similar to using the viite gamma you know um the thing with an active electrode is that that the amplification is right at the electrode site and uh you you don't have as much of a problem with the uh distance from the uh uh from the computer you don't pick up as much Field Effect around it it's Amplified um uh but gamma's you can see gamma with classic electrodes that's that's ridiculous now how you look for gamma is another matter if you look for it in a in a an averaged uh data set you're not going to necessarily find it that easily uh if you look with a Hilbert transform which doesn't look for Power it looks for rsity you'll be able to see it much more readily uh that was uh the method that was used by Dirk deritter and his group and um uh um Walter Freeman III uh uh from Berkeley he's he passed that about 95 years old maybe four or five years ago now uh unfortunately he was supposed to give the lecture a pre lecture at the Consciousness Society uh but uh he passed that year just before their meeting so okay anyway nice plug for violight uh Marie was viite over at the uh smhr sa what's the acronym in Chicago isnr isnr oh isnr yeah yeah yeah yeah what uh you want to give us an update what happened uh while you were there clue everybody in yeah I mean just absolutely fabulous meeting I mean it's it's the place where there's a meeting of the minds right um it's the place I mean obviously there are all of the um uh the workshops um you know I sh shared my research in terms of what we're doing on the um of the swingle Sonic app uh to potentiate brain quiet um and and but it's also you you know just where all of us kind of sit down not only share what we know is happening with what we're doing but also what we think might be happening um and it really sets the stage um for new research it sets the stage for new Explorations experimental treatments Etc so it's really really positive in that regard I find um I I never regret going to these these meetings I mean same thing let's give a plug for for Susan you know just in terms of the brain power that's going to be in that little Yacht Club uh just absolutely phenomenal just you know it's not just the talks it's not just learning about what people have done uh it's also where we're going so Jay Jay I don't know whether you wna um take that a little bit further oh you know it's been about that long since the last meeting uh they shaved me at the last meeting for well Radar Radar said is it still possible to get into the conference and I said yes it is put the link in there suon city.com uh excuse me summit.com will will uh get you in to get a registration in yeah and um that I think there's still a handful of seats uh but it's it's a limited number of seats and after that it's all uh just streaming oh they can look through the window of the bar it'll be live streamed into the bar you know uh so uh I'm I'm wondering if half the half the audience will just not come back into the meeting room and just catch it from the bar you know they're having issues with that as a former attende I can attest to that Anthony you posted a Jay said yeah I think I was actually gon to ask you about this I I believe I've heard Jay say before that that gamma is meant to be seen nested in chirps of theta and it's not really meant to be seen you know persistently was the word I Ed but that may not be correct yeah if gamma's persistent versus seen in chirps and it's not always nested in Theta it can be nested in Alpha also if you look at it in the sensory areas you see it nested in Alpha uh it's uh content it's not uh state um and the the nesting in Theta ends up being really quite easily identifiable if you use wavelets you see it as event related synchronization desynchronization and you see six bursts in a second of the of the gamma uh and you'll see that in normals in high functioning add their gamma bursts are very weak and in low functioning add quite often a lot of their gamma nests are empty so uh the you know gamma and ADD ADHD is an under uh underevaluated and undertreated segment of the of the Spectra It's actually an important aspect uh and Gamma that's appropriate gamma that gamma that's nested and ends up being insufficient in ADD ADHD compared to normals if I can just do a bit of a shout out to newbies out there please be very very very cautious about Gamma okay um you know if you don't quite get the literature get a mentor to understand it more um you know there's certain aspects of gamma where you you want to bring it up to help with certain conditions Etc and certain things where you are doing harm harm harm harm harm by bringing gamma up so you know this panel here is fairly knowledgeable and we throw things around but please this is one of those ways do not play with it you got to know what what you're doing I had a vendor who had a software that was gamma training software and and he was uh asking me to kind of like uh suggest a little write up about it that was favorable and I I said well if I write about Gamma I'm also going to write about the pathology because persistent gamma's associated with pathology it's seen in seizure focuses it's seen in in uh dymas uh uh it's seen in chronic pain parkinsonism idus um so gamma's not necessarily good it depends upon what kind of gamma you have persistent gamma's not good nested gamma now you're talking uh that now now that's that's the kind of stuff that you need so you need to know the difference and can't can't just train gamma up and assume that's a benefit now photobi modulation of gamma isn't necessarily training gamma that you're making you're having an effect on the they they believe the mitochondrial uh aspect of the cell you're getting a mitochondrial boost at a cellular level uh to the cortex and that that makes reasonable sense um but uh the gamma when you're actually doing something with your brain when a network is formed gamma is an emergent property of having a network it's like having a bell the bell will ring um it's a resonant property of having a network when you create a network about 45 milliseconds after the network has formed you have a Resonance of gamma in it question I had about the question I had about Gamma Jay the Davidson research on the monks I mean we all talk about it and I I haven't I haven't read the papers in many years but it seems like they had an extraordinary uh Power value at least on gamma I don't know its duration what they're talking about is not what we talk about when we come to gamma right either so Cliff sarin and ban Watts also were involved with that study and they presented a lot of work on the samtha project at UCLA their gamma starts at around like 100 to 200 and there's ringing gamma up four five six a thousand that they're talking about that's the gamma that seems to be enhanced and it's not gamma um tonic high level amplitude it's it's connectivity as well between regions uh so we we skipped a question though on gamma Ben asked I think why people think you can't measure with pass elect it's a very simple reason and I kind of agree with it because I've seen how hard it is to visualize gamma in filtered signals the one over F you have Delta as a high amplitude wave as you go up in frequen uh frequency go down in amplitude for the same energy and all those layers of all that EEG passes through layers of tissue it's attenuated gamma is often below the noise floor of attenuation in low-key equipment so you can measure it with nonactive electrodes if you have a very clean environment a lot of density and you're doing not just ffts on the signal but for the kinds of stuff we do in the neur youback landscape with passive electrodes and a cheap $500 amp those things are not getting that resolution I don't believe and you you don't I don't think you should trust gamma and most of the the early studies on gamma and EEG were attracted because it was isod they're picking up not gamma yeah so gamma's one of these things we have to be careful with saying anything too strongly about because lots of careers have been like damaged by people making the wrong assertions in literature and having them pulled so I I think gamma is sneaky and we you know unless you're an expert in it you're you don't know anything about it basically the other question yeah the other question I had as as happened in the meeting at at in uh winter t u there's a a presentation they talked about Gamma and F sheller stands up and he says Ah 40 HZ gamma you can't trust you know if it's not gamma 2 I don't even look at it you know so so um and if you look at uh uh the the the uh wavelet analysis and you have enough wavelets to actually see higher up into the frequencies you you'll end up seeing there's 40 HZ gamma that's res an uh but there's higher frequency resonants and Gamma 2 ripples they're higher frequency F functions that are uh important and sometimes extremely involved in pathologies um if you want to uh see a bizarre beta Peak uh gigantic beta Peak up in the 30 something Hertz range uh find somebody who's having an acute schizophrenic break with with hearing command voices at that moment they're they're hearing voices telling them to do something right now right now and you look on the EG you you'll see spindling excess beta way up in the 30s and that um it's pathology um in in the range in the range that people would consider gamma but not the gamma 2 which is like Feller says that that's real gamma why do so many trainers avoid directly training the prefrontals I found T3 fp1 to be quite helpful radar Ash would so so frontal polers FP yeah well they're noisy for starters they're super noised muscle yeah mari's got a good very good point they're very hard to train also um they're delayed in N feedback often FP sites for some reason produ a second day effect or a third day effect um and a little harder to get a clean effect on side effect that for people for people who are are doing multiple sessions per week um the the delayed effect i' just be really really cautious because you could go past where you want to go so I didn't mean to interrupt actually yes I meant it's not like people don't train train there the orbital frontal you know right right orbital frontal work for uh trauma that's that's done commonly um it it the frontal poles are uh spots that are also seen with a radiation around them and you don't necessarily have to stick your electrode into the fp1 fp2 area to pick up areas off the front that you're interested in in in training or tuning so you don't have to stick your electrode sell forward onto the muscle or into the field of the eye movement subtle eye movements and slightly further up afz and and of fpz or an FZ uh you you pick up enough of the anterior singulate usually at that at that without having to go all the way forward and uh U super high resolution is always nice to end up projecting where something comes from uh but with 19 electrodes we have generally adequate Source localization to end up uh identifying if you've got something wrong with the frontal poles where exactly we could put an electrode that would end up feeding it back what's an example of a delayed effect oh Pete do you want to just pause a bit because I I I I interrupted Andrew when he was you go girl everybody's interrupting everybody no no but just no I just wanted to emphasize something he said but Andrew you had more to say do you want to just pick that up again oh I don't think I did no just that just that the FPS are both delayed they're noisy as you said and they're more side effect prone like they're harder to predict the effects you know versus is like the central strip I I'm I'm a Thalamus guy I like to go down through the thalamus but hit the cortex whenever possible you know like like the corticothalamic regulation can hit a lot of the brain that's not near the camic strip so I always try to find this the the central manipulation phenomena that works best before I start hunting for spots of Cortex to tune yeah you know people are pretty connected to their somata sensory cortex area as well they the feel of it is felt sense as opposed to more esoteric areas which are well our language doesn't even describe them well so you know why should we even try uh um actually Joe kamya's uh recommendation for all of us to to observe EG phenomenon and make subjective correlations and try to have group uh synthesis of the data so we get some kind of what what they at UC San Francisco referred to as biocybernaut an investigator of internal space um and uh uh Jim Hart kind of picked up on that but that there was a whole group at San Francisco at one point that used that uh virus iberna not U anyway we we we U uh we do have subjective experiences of frontal function and uh temporal functions and sensory area functions but our Cata sensory were particularly connected to and uh the the the felt sense of the feedback is usually really quite strong centrally all right everybody we're we're at time uh anybody would like to do an Irish goodbye please do it any time we meet at the same bad time same bad Channel every Wednesday your questions Drive the content thank goodness it's picking up steam and uh doing our best I can only imagine if we had a thousand people in here I don't know how the hell we answer the questions well we don't even answer them now so hey well I tell Pete Neuron docomo a show on Thursday Dr Marie and Jay and whoever wants to tag along and if there's any carryover from today we'll try to deal with that to have it come out on the Thursday show and then we we'll we'll make uh we'll make amends and just like VJ says here he's going to ask his PR practitioner to clarify always check with your primary care physician first this is for entertainment and informational purposes only are you everybody what a blast uh we're we're we're ending on high note ton ton of people in here and uh uh I can some online viewers yeah let's keep yeah we got 're yeah we're we're you know the number one rule in entertainment J you know what it is you got to always leave the stage with the crowd just wanting a little bit more yeah when I'm on stage all right folks all right everybody uh see you next week okay bye bye thanks bye bye all bye all and remember uh well I guess nobody remembers let's see about what we're supposed to remember