Live Q&A: Neurofeedback & Mental Health - Nov 2024 | NeuroNoodle

so education and entertainment purposes only always check with your primary care physician first see we just got that out of the way Dr Hill it's just me me and you right now we're live so anyone else who follows after is covered by our disclaimer that this is yes absolutely edain edutainment so uh we were talking in the Green Room Dr Hill uh uh schools right now this is the time of year where people are like saying hey you know can what can we do to get from point A to point point be in the classroom what are you seeing out there yeah I'm seeing people identify you know needs for the first time they uh you know the The Summer's over it's been now five six weeks into school and the first report cards are coming in and parents are getting you know novel information discovering their kid suddenly can't focus or hasn't been turning in homework and there's a certain amount like discovery of phenomena that are that the school is communicating back to the parent and then you have this other phenomena where the kid has just been full court press doing all the stuff for the past five or six weeks and it's starting to take a toll you know their sleep is getting disregulated they're getting stressed and they're like sport performan is crumbling or they're being mean to their sibling and uh you know this sort of mid-fall period seems to be a kind of a stressful one for adolescence especially I think we give doing all those all those things building up and we tend to get a little rush of kids in adolescence especially and also some college kids although typically they're you know a different a different time of year uh but yeah they they didn't get some support and then uh hopefully move on you do the do the college kids reach out to you or the parents they don't the parents do eventually uh the problem with college kids is they can they go off the rails harder longer so we generally get College kids um the most common time to get college kids that are having trouble there's really two times one is right before they come to college the parents go wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute this is going to be hard this is you know without the structure without the reminders without the systems we built to support your executive function or your stress whatever it is we concerned so they go and do some neur feedback and so Shore up those resources and send the kid to college a little better when I do work with those kids I all spend a fair amount of time teaching them how things work in terms of like circadian rhythm and you know insulin and and the basics of of of you know biohacking behaviorally so they can do things like get a away with staying up all night and studying and then how to put the Circadian rhythm back on track quickly with not you know have a lot of consequence if they need to do stuff like that or want to you know party here's how you do it safely so there's a certain amount of like you know helping educate but we see them right before they leave for college and then we tend to see them uh in the summer after their first year or second year because what happens is things progressively crumble parents don't generally find out rapidly you know report cards aren't sent home you know by default in college so if you want to look at something you know or if you're have access to the school system you can perhaps but it's a different relationship with the responsibility so we tend to kids getting further off the rails in in college before they get help um so what on the mental side of help I it's been a while since I've been to college I don't know about you Dr Hill uh what who reaches out is it the ra like who notices that something is off like they get into trouble or um it's a great or or the way they act it's a great question I would say that we I I up until recently up until 2019 I was teaching at the college level um so you know five years ago but it wasn't that different culturally I don't think than it is now um and we would have kids you know I was I was doing you lecturing you know education classes around uh Neuroscience of aging and cognitive Neuroscience classes and Peak you know brain aging classes a bunch of gerontology focused work and so I was seeing these kids um I would say it also depends on the age group a lot because I for for several years I was a teaching fellow in the Frontiers and aging program UCLA which is one of the tracks that freshmen can do they come in and us has this program for some freshmen it's it's optional but it's called the cohort program where you don't just take a bunch of classes but you actually stick with the same group of kids through multiple um classes across the entire year and the class the classes are thematically tied together so I saw these you know 17 and 18 year olds come in and would work with them for a year as they move through uh you know three quarters of class and different projects and you know different things and you see a lot of development and a lot of variability you know one 18y old to the next not the same at all some are you know not yet fully baked and some are you know Conquering the world at 18 and then you get the people who are the mid to late undergrad like the Juniors the sophomores who are starting to get a little existential on Wei and getting in trouble with you know not lack of purpose basically so I would say though college students don't don't flame out educationally academically and even with mental health stuff the same way that younger kids can I think um I don't know if there's more freedom to show your anxiety or your whatever but I think I think college might be a filter too once you like go over that hurdle of getting into it and putting all that effort in and you know the the the screen that is there to sort of say no you can't come in is going to catch a certain amount of people who are struggling with academic difficulty and tendencies for anxiety radd so you know I think we may have a natural filter built into our college system to like keep some of the people out in some ways unfortunately who have some significant needs in those executive areas now with the college kids when when did the um Aderall all these other these meth products come out that the kids started using them and that has had an effect on them yeah it's been like long time now I mean when I was starting to teach at UCLA it was like 2005 or six and it was already by then you know 20 years ago then the internet happened now it's like really easy to get the stuff yeah and not just stimulants although that is relatively you know well there's a stimulant shortage I hear so oh is there yeah maybe not in the US so much but a lot of countries are having trouble I have a have a business in the UK uh we have uh a business in Europe and um there's this big sort of difficulty especially in the UK both getting diagnosis and getting medication like people get prescriptions from meds but even the US I hear that in some regions where clients are like yeah I'm looking for neuro feedback because I can't get my Aderall so I heard about this neuro feedback stuff so ironically we're getting we're getting uh market share in your feedback from the stimulant uh consumer because they can't get stimulants so and the same thing's happening with neut tropics and this I think is more concerning for college students and younger is that there's lots of random nonsense out there on the internet you can purchase that isn't even as safe as stim and that may create secondary problems so you know you get certain compounds on board that are research chemicals or that are off Lael drugs overseas and suddenly somebody's getting you know massive side effects from what they thought was a study drug essentially so Ben says they got to give those production line workers those stimulants and they'll roll them off that's right that's right so so it's kind of like a a self-reinforcing thing give the Aderall company the Aderall and then they make more arerol it's Turtles all the way down it's speed all the way down it's like looking in a mirror radar speaking of Aderall have you ever heard of using Midrin as a I've heard of midin is that no idea yeah I I forget what the mechanism what the molecule is but I've heard of it uh obviously it's got to be like an F an edrin kind of compound with that dream at the end but radar maybe you can uh help us out yeah what is it remind us what what uh what mitr is I'm too lazy to Google it oh here we go here we go look at look at radar coming through increases blood pressure to your head oh okay interesting I think if it works for executive support I'd rather do h f near PBM hbot well before I'd rather push up with uh a chemical push up blood pressure that's says it raises an interesting question on the [Laughter] turtles would psychiatrists necessarily prescribe the same medications if they tried them themselves uh no because psychiatrists would probably you know know that different people react differently to drugs so their own experience wouldn't necessarily plus there's this big prohibition against you know getting high in your own Supply if you're a psychiatrist they call that diverted when you you know take meds that should go to somebody else oh like like the addicts working in the hospital and kind of pocking a yeah yeah yeah yeah I I I worked in hospitals impatient psychiatric units and things and during the time when it went from just a random you know cabinet that a nurse worked out of to uh a computerized cabinet where you had to like you know give it a retinal scan and type in three codes and hop on one foot for six minutes before it opened up and then you know like just because of the the problems that existed in the industry the mental health industry broadly of diversion from especially stimulants so yeah increases blood pressure to the head but doesn't directly cross the blood brain barrier oh interesting so it's got to affect the some of the uh some of the neurotransmitters that affect alertness then things like acetylcholine and norpine phrine must be brought up a little bit um indirectly through some sort of catacol amine phenomena that's interesting again sounds risky to me so I'd rather do HG or or Hyperbaric or something else if it creates an effect I'd rather create a regulatory effect in that direction versus just pushing in that direction that's that's my my preference I don't know if I need more blood pressure in my head right I know so Dr Hill when 80% of your business is uh putting in the box remote yeah um what uh what's the the the top two or three um symptoms that you're trying to train or what are the complaints that you're trying to uh eliminate yeah I will say that the things we work on have shifted over the past uh you know decade or two that we've been doing this work um it's it's really sort of spreading out you know like when I first did this work working with Larry hburg in the east coast it was a neurodevelopment you know program Autism and Related phenomena and neurodevelopmental mostly kids and uh even when I did work in in private practice you know I had a certain focus on autism and I got some addiction work in because I partner with some addiction folks uh had a lot of ADHD experience through the autism experience because you got you know similar populations and presentations sometimes and then as I developed Peak brain I mean we're coming up on 10 years we're about six months away from 10 years at Peak brain now and we have a really wide range of people and it really does still track the traditional if you will clinical population you know parents with kids that have non-verbal autism and people with seizures and that kind of stuff and classic phenomena like PTSD and OCD um but these days over the past few years we're getting an awful lot more people with just general broad complaints that are the kinds of things you would get in like infirm and elderly people during during you know periods of our of the US history when we didn't have good nutrition like you know neuroinflammatory malnutrition kind of phenomena create sort of signature and we're seeing this neuroinflammatory signature in presenting populations AC cross complaint and it looks like disautonomia for some people it looks like pots for some people it looks like exercise intolerance for some people it's kind of a long covid blame but it seems like this is there's this change where we're in neur feedback we're moving away from just working on the classic regulatory into the uh some more physiological stuff seems to be showing up so yeah well radar comes through uh Dr n uses it for autistic kids because a lot of them can't handle stimulants like methylphenidate interesting I would love to see a a brain map with and without um Mido mitran what was it who brought that up radar there we go M M M M okay do you know that drug uh no I'm looking at up now uh very interesting yeah with Martin Mueller who I believe is a a psychiatrist in one of the groups was talking about mitochondria the other day and he tries to he thinks they may be involved in neuro feedback side effects and one way he tries to help people with that is by getting them to eat a um not like ketogenic but like a low blood sugar diet um so anyway I don't know I don't know how far that road goes but it it's reminding me of it now when I'm looking at this yeah you can use uh light keto to create um uh anti-inflammatory states too right because ketones themselves are anti-inflammatory they're used for cell repair repair so and they're used for fuel directly but without oxidative smoke you know they don't blow off a lot of byproduct when you burn them so they tend to be very anti anti-inflammatory compared to glycose glucose metabolism um so uh my hunch is is part of the stability mechanism we know in deep ketosis that's anti-seizure I think light ketosis is broadly anti-inflammatory nice okay autistic kids have a lot of issues with disom tiia somebody help cere yeah I said that three times fast cereal hypo lightness Etc radar you're earning your money today man you're worth every cent every cent we pay you and then and then some that's so um this is why H works so well for autism sometimes I mean not every case you know there's many many things you put in that bucket called autism but HG you know training blood flow vascular Dynamics to become more stable less reactive less droppy with stress and fatigue and things creates real change in ASD popul in a way that's a little unique it's a hard thing to get with any other tool in ASD um and and I it's it's vasular dynamics that you're getting stability in do do you guys use uh HG of any flavor you familiar with that that tool set I have not but I I feel like I just saw Santiago say he likes to use it for he might have said High beta it was a recent like thread I saw is there a reason you use use HG over another doctor who yeah um it's an adjunctive tool though I don't generally use it by itself unless there's behavioral reasons like if a kid's really you know I've used it with autistic kids that are screaming and stemming and won't sit still because it's insensitive to movement it's a infrared um do I have one here on the table I might it's an infrared light yeah it's a camera the one that I use is passive infrared P don't seem to have one in reach um the uh the uh form is n near infrared which has an emitter and a receiver that's heral tm's version I use Jeff carman's version which is essentially just an infrared camera that's not focused then it's pointing inward so you get waves of heat coming off the brain as a proxy for metabolism and lots of people use this differently the way that Dr Carmen uses it is with sort of static threshold that you reset manually kind of old school um what I found I do I I really like using it and a very simple mechanism where I just Yoke the real-time signal to stimulus like an auditory rising and falling tone and a visual that that tracks that and literally just look at the real-time signal and do biof feedback traditional bio feedback on it where you're trying you're watching for a goal you're effortful and when you think effortful thoughts or happy thoughts two seconds later you get a blood surge you know the Bold response in fmri for instance is that sort of blood oxygen level dependent tissue response to cognition or effort so you can sit there and stare at the screen and go and then like after a second it goes oh I made my brain you know do a vascular pump go me if you keep doing that you get a uh change over time and I use it for migraine always use if I migraine presentations because it's a VA a vascular phenomena I'm pretty sure neurovascular coupling and spreading cortical depression of the metabolism Etc um I use it for autism I don't know why it works in autistic Spectrum I I I have a hard time understanding the the effects we get and and how they're happening and I'll unpack that in a second if you want and I use it for concussion and postco kind of things these broad metabolic neuroinflammatory phenomena but in autism you know HG the style that I use P passive INF Fred it's always Central it's never moved um mostly because it's got a really bro broad range of focus you don't need to get any Focus it's not doing a a topical thing it's getting like the whole head pretty much um when we do that training in most people like if you or I did it it would feel a little focusing for some people it feels like you had too much coffee it's a little bit like boosting in autistic Spectrum people often it gooses social function it gooses the humor and sense of timing if you're high functioning autistic and you have a little bit of a wooden you know communication style little timing kind of awkward and um I had one client when I was working with Dr hburg Who was in his 40s and he was high function autistic but not aspy he was he was autistic and he had some very unusual social stuff but he was obsessively interested in jokes that was his thing jokes and so he would memorize huge numbers of like jokes and it wasn't just that he had to like know the jokes and know the patterns it was in the telling of them he really really enjoyed walking around Providence RH Island finding random people tell him a joke and he would come in every few years and be like I'm not funny right now can we do some more HG I I need to be funny again and he would literally get like snappier and and a little more humorous little more sensitive and I don't understand why because most of those like social queuing humor timing things I would put in the back of the head pretty far away from the vascular tone and yet it produced this social social sensitivity uh his proes verbal verbal uh Lil would go from sounding kind of what then a little bit like this to sounding a little bit more natural and a little bit more you know you could and that's that's back here and the eye contact stuff fuseform gyrus that's back there so you can get big effects from doing uh frontal lib training but I don't know why it works it's one of those recipe book things that we come across in the field that that works okay remember that but all right we got a line at the bar here Dr Hill the benefit from the ketogenic diets might be from starving bacteria in a small in intestine bacteria and small intestine produce LPS which is insanely pro-inflammatory interesting I bet you could figure that out looking at the time course figure out the time course of improvements and seeing uh uh gut biome time course die off because I think it's a different I think it's a different time course in um in brain responses and gut responses so I bet they're I bet you distinguish them in a research experiment for your disseration there RAR Ben ask can you see the opposite blood changes from EEG sure yeah if you had an infed camera you would see changes while people are training uh radar asss HG made me feel very smart oh I need some of that and gave me good executive function but I found it caused some weird issues made me sympathetic dominant I think changed the way EG neur feedback affected me too yep too much you did too much unfortunately you can back that off um that's an overarousal effect very common in HG when overdid it too much time probably if if is my guess per session but um what that will have done is left you a little anxious it will if you look at your QE your your beta is GNA be higher than it was before you did all that and so you can you can you know knowing your brain you can go after it and kind of back out some of that activation tone it should be pretty straightforward radar so i' look at your own data and you know I bet you can figure it out I think uh Ben went to the Pete Jansen School of communication I've heard of people having bad reactions over but I don't know if any more or less than anything else of HG yeah um HG is contraindicated in my experience under uh strong anxiety like if you got OCD or sever severe you know trauma response stuff it's not a good tool um unless you're you know in the middle of a a of a burgeoning migraine and then whip it out but you want to really avoid anyone who's prone to overactivation it will it will overactivate you if you're prone to that you have to be very careful Anthony want to read some of these off you do the mix drinks I'll just do the drafts I reckon autism is mostly rigidity if you're Central can you perhaps be seeing more flow in the dmn auum is mostly social processing and the rigidity stuff comes from classic features that many people experience an anxiety who are not autistic and just looks different because it's blown all the way up so um I'm much what you mean by Central um the dmn will get cramped up in the in the prever of the runative the hyperfocused and the OCD so yeah you do see dmn disregulation in autism um I was wondering when you mentioned Dr Hill that you uh were treating the front of the brain and it was helping the person with humor I've heard that um I think the ventromedial prefrontal cortex can be involved in empathy I'm thinking rear neurons I don't know if you think that's involved um well um I think I don't know what I think is a short answer I I I really work hard to come right up to a conclusion and avoid it whenever possible um you know a near missing conclusion is great in my book uh uh just so I don't have to like necessarily like operate in a rigid a rigid way but um speaking of rigidity yeah right uh but um we know there's a big circuit that goes from that dorsal lateral PFC all the way especially in the right the right one I think might it might be more relevant I don't know if these are connected but it makes some sense the right dlpfc back to the back right area that goes through the left uh sorry the right pre-central gyrus C4 that's the supervisor circuit for executive function and the particular connection between dorle PFC and posterior I think I saw an article floating around about the prunus right which is posterior between the motor and the parietal there um that's going to do uh outside world kind of representation and threat because it's right hemisphere so I I think there's something to do with sort of the that that circuit has this sort of thing about avoidance and threat built into it which is almost the exact opposite of humor and we also get attachment issues from that right front corner of the brain too right so i i s I start to see this weird phenomena when the right front's involved for some people you you can do these release protocols which were the sort of first generation SE Fisher bring up Theta at the right front kind of style thing really early you know kind of BL blunt instruments now Ste doesn't do those now but I I use those early on and I had some people who would wake up in the middle of night giggling with laughter and full of love after doing that like like what like empathy just bubbling over and it's that sort of you know this right front area but it's how it's connected to the Lifeguard ready to keep you safe or not that seems to be a big piece of that um that threat piece and I wonder if the same circuit's involved with the ability to put yourself in someone's shoes be empathetic and that I think empathy and humor we're g to find share a lot of resources we have an that's very cool we have another question from radar uh does B12 give people energy by increasing beta waves I don't know I think it does I think it increases stands for the what's what's the B stand for beta beta oh funny funny um slow slow news night right it it it it increases cell metabolism and so I mean that's that's where beta is it's in that fast metabolism you know moderate to low profusion so so maybe I think it's person by person too right methylation you get changes in the singulate you get changes in the other dmn structures based on MTHFR and then that will mean that different forms of B12 hit you differently you know methyl Calo sorry methyl hydroxo Etc all hit you differently so which B12 and is it an injection is it oral so I don't know that's a complicated question radar trick question way to go radar thank you for showing up by the way please check with your primary care physician for entertainment at educational purposes only uh the video editor has a question uh what's the best bang for your uh Buck I don't want to say because you hate it when you say you know what protocol but CZ can you do the most with just CZ No No in fact you can cause a lot of ab reactions with CZ if you aren't careful it's it's often very gentle and across people most people it's a relatively safe protocol but there's a certain characteristic of brain that does not like CZ um SE talks about this as a likely place to create AB reactions if there's a trauma history and the way sein talks about it is I believe if you have to go after it for other reasons then you can really be working on um inhibiting a a different range almost into the Delta range is is one of her theories about how to go after uh dissolving that but I find if you had to pick one protocol yeah your question C4 C4 A1 SMR and what's going on there well it's SMR Global it's not as focused in the right hemisphere SMR is training the camic and theortical neurons you're training the entire gain of the executive and the Sleep systems at once um you're doing Global work you're bringing up plasticity to 11 for a day or two after every session and so is that you're saying somebody that when you send the box out sorry you got the the parents who their kids just got a crappy report card and they just got the box uh is from us from is that what they're going to ask for they're gonna well we do do a brain map so that we we do remote brain mapping somebody's going to walk them through putting a cap on their kids's head and squirt it full of gel and no no more next to over oh there you go you know watching impedances watching quality and then after we look at the data we always compare brain mapping with CPT we never do one or the other it's always both if the kids's old enough to do a do a performance test because I'm a I'm a cognitive neuroscientist I don't believe in data alone I don't believe in performance alone you got to put those thing the physiology and the performance in contrast so once we look at the data I will say to the parent something like here's some unusual features that often mean X Y or Z are they important are they real are they meaningful parent and often the kid will select what to work on all that takes a few days and then uh Peak brain coaches spent a couple of weeks teaching you and gradually practicing doing it with you and we generally do start with SMR training for a lot of people and we generally do start at C4 for a lot of people but you make changes to how we start it based on age and anxiety and brain injury and all kinds of modifying factors that might mean you SMR has this magical property of working for a lot of things because it helps inhibitory Tone It teaches the brain how to pump pump the brakes on anxiety on seizure on distractability on sleep on all kinds of things so a little better inhibitory tone works wonders and SMR when it lands poorly doesn't land that poorly so one of my clinical strategies is to start in an SMR scape for most people unless there a good reason not to and then over the two or three as you guys know and anyone who's watching later will discover um nura feedback classic Nur feedback you don't usually feel the first session usually feel it around three four sessions in is is my perspective so you have a little bit of time to like let's work in the practice of it let's see how it feels to set some wires up and let's use a safe middle of the road protocol that works for lots of things if we get lucky there not likely to cause any AB reactions and then we're watching for that initial effect and SMR creates initial effects around executive function sleep and I do move into you into CZ as you mentioned uh Pete it's a good good it's a good one for many people I'm moving doing C4 and czs but then I'm actually by that point after a couple of sessions I'm designing off of their goals and their CPT and their their brain maps at that point so I'm branching out do all caling prot protocols work by stimulating the Vegas nerve no most uh I would say mostly the Vegas nerve will get calmed by the brain top down uh if you're doing brain training protocols and it's calming you and there's a Vegas response then you're training something in the dmn usually the singlets um there but but there's um there's literature showing you can get an HRV change from SMR training and you can get SMR changes from HRV training so you know what happens in the Vegas doesn't stay in the Vegas you guys have to give me credit when that shows up on a t-shirt that's pretty damn good I like that one I've been using that on podcast for decades yeah I just saw a little blip in in traffic coming in Dr Hill what is the uh your left eyeball right above right below the eyebrow towards the nose what is that spot there that some people train it's like the 911 Center do you know what I'm talking about so on the right side fp2 is that is that what it is orbital so fpo is frontop polar orbit orbital bone the socket when when you want to chill somebody out is that what it is that's a no I mean I mean that's that's one of Seaburn Fisher's old like really significant attachment trauma release protocols but she warned in that paper on her website she warned people not to do it for more than three to five minutes yeah fp2 Ben exactly and she sort of says be really cautious with this one and Seaburn protocols evolved away from that because it was it was like dumping dynamite in a kitty pole full of crap for some people everything you know blowing crap up everywhere but that is that is the attachment protocol essentially and then she moved up to the fp2 you know just just above the eye on the on the on the top of the arch so for anyone's ever wondering how to find fp2 often we're taught to do it in line with the eyeball the pupil looking straight ahead but I want you guys to you know I want people to think about the arch of the bone right there the middle of the arch is where FPL is um and so it's not sorry FP is it's not you know over there it's not over there it's right in the middle of the arch on above the pupil yeah there's a guide to it exactly and Ben on C's website and she warns people against doing very much of it because it's so um powerful fb2 can trigger seizures anytime you're rewarding below four Herz you can trigger seizures if someone s someone's uh someone has a tendency for them you don't usually it's very hard to trigger seizures if you aren't already prone to seizures the only reason I know that one uh number one that makes me sound smart and number two my sister did it uh she's a smart one in the family the neuropsychologist so she did it and uh that like knocked her out for half a day she was had a great nap I think I think the fb2 might have been the one that my my uh colleague woke up all night in the middle of the night laughing and giggling thinking how wonderful the world was like it was a release protocol but I've also seen fb2 um I have another couple ones that I use in the same category um they're very rare in that they feel CRA they can feel very crappy afterwards you know there's there's an alpha down protocol that Ruth lanus has that curn has that I've developed a version of it's a little bit different they all kind of feel the same and they feel lousy after you finish them generally you're like like and and when I was developing my version of it um I was working with a couple colleagues that I mentor and and uh I was starting to use these protocols a little bit gently carefully mostly with staff who wanted to try them because I'm not a therapist I don't love to do random experimental things that you know might be a little pushy without being very careful but a lot of my supervises mentees at the time were psychologists and MDS I'm like oh hey here's the thing I'm working on because they're asking I need something for this for attachment trauma for developmental trauma for whatever oh okay I think this might work this is my new thing I haven't tested it well oh okay try it and without fail a dozen people across two or three providers and my staff who were wanted to try the protocol gave the same report which was uh like one of my mentees call called me and he oh my gosh I got this really nasty voicemail from my client they left my office out they said left me a 10-minute di you know rant about how they do not want to do that protocol again and it really sucks and they really hate me wow and someone else got an email saying the same thing I did not like that protocol and then they all came back two days later and said hey can I um can I have some more of that protocol well when people say it's all Placebo and all that just whip that one out on them right I mean it does have an effect I mean it's it's a lot of trial and error isn't it you're trying to find you know what's right for for everybody and it's not a it's not a oneand done right it's not and and um I think radar just said that one of his friends would develop seizures after foo2 um if he's having seizures that didn't just happen once it's it's got to be an underlying phenomena um that get irritated into like being more visible that just means probably the it's probably a Theta reward someone did or a Delta reward and they you know they they brought the spike up and they dropped the SMR because Theta and SMR are a little bit mutually antagonistic so if you bring up Theta strongly you can really erode SMR quality so um you you can you can you can get control over that again radar your friend can just has to probably Target if it if if the nura feedback created it by bringing up Theta then you can shut down that Theta and bring up SMR again and just reverse it I would guess so tell your friend to Grace thanks for uh gracing us with your presence how do you deal with high beta tell to chill out I don't know have a latte that's right that's right uh Raider he definitely had an underlying that was exposed because he has other weird issues oh that's like gwin syndrome what's gwin syndrome it's gan's area I unless I'm can some correct me if I'm wrong but I believe gan's area is the right hand side uh analog to vernick's area right in fact often Vernick gwind is the left one anyways but there they were friends but I think the gwin syndrome is a failure of the right analog what that produces is difficulty doing things like rapid sequencing you can't like turn your hand over rapidly it's got some cerebella stuff um I think there's some things involved with oh is it language I forget what's in gwis I'm a bad cognitive neuroscientist today um but it's it's got some motor things it's got some perceptual environmental things um a non language it's like a non- language veres analog in some ways for other things other other sequences Anthony what's been going on in the chat room give me something man yeah um mainly actually just chatting with uh John and Jay well um there was more OIC stuff that's been the hot every so often I'll get people texting me about Jay's you guys did a podcast on um digital digital OIC and I think I think I wanted to make sure that I should probably go talk to that person I think I hope what was getting across is the digital OIC as we termed it it's not really trying to get you to per se lose weight it's more trying to give you impulse control so that might be something I think so that might be something that needs to be cleared up for people because I get that one a lot I I have a version I call the snackers protocol just removes the urge to like snack and you know because you're bored and put sugar in your mouth doesn't really like make you lose weight it just makes you not be quite as snacky and cons impulsive basically so now I'll throw a curveball at you I did know there's a couple of female friends I have that they are and this is just a stab in the dark but they're not they're not losing weight and um they are doing nor feedback it's it's um it's not really helping in that regard and one of the things I noticed is something clicked somebody told me that SMR can increase slow waves and don't know if that's true but I check with both these people do a lot of SMR frontal frontal slow waves and so I looked it up and slow waves might be associated with less brain metabolism so I'm wondering could that yeah but you're talking about like Global excesses of Delta at a high level is what that's sort of H hyper perfusion with with blood and and reduced metabolism as a consequence that's a Delta phenomena right so okay um I what I what I have found in a few of my clients though is and in me okay training SMR makes me hungry huh so I think there's a I think we may be getting people like going home and eating after their neuro feedback interesting um because I get like I get like oh I worked out I gotta eat sometimes not not every protocol but like if I if I hit beta hard the kind of beta where you're like nodding while training and you can't keep your eyes open cuz you overdid it like an hour later I'm like oh I gotta eat sounds like digital marijuana well that's how that there's things you can do alpha Theta might be close I don't know yeah for some people for some people it is let to see if one of our one of our friends for the the live stream says up has been doing a lot of meditation in Alpha Theta and he's getting really trippy experiences well we do have a followup with that um yeah get we got a line of the bar this is from DJ he says could the snackers protocol help with restlessness and meditation the snackers protocol targets the right insula okay so which is about body awareness what is the snackers Pro we should probably get out yeah I shouldn't I I really don't like to give specific protocols but I'll just say that it's fp1 minus M2 okay sorry about that yeah that's okay no no no I just I don't want to like start laming numbers because people think it's a it's a fixed thing and they go and try one thing when it could be the wrong thing for your brain without looking at your brain first so I'm happy to talk about protocols that's that's my personal limit is Regions I'll talk regions um no problem but but um it's like fp1 minus M2 uh basically and you can find it you can find old versions of it all over the place so people can dig yeah um but it's it's it's very hey VJ it's very one of those strange uh protocols most things in your feedback you do and they create change and they create Progressive change you do the more you get more change but the um the snackers protocol is transient you get you get a blunting of effect a blunting of desire to snack you have you tried the snackers protocol are you talking about meditation this this giant yes in the screen we have here he says uh I think he's just want I don't know why he's maybe he can tell us VJ is there any reason why you're asking about meditation and the snackers protocol together uh so thinking about impulse control or something yeah I don't I don't know if I like the snackers protocol for uvj unless you're snacking I I don't like to do protocols randomly unless there's like some rationale because we're never we're never perfect and so I like to have some reason some idea I can test as I try something because at least then we've colored a little bit out into a dark corner and now it's now it's the light shown there and by doing enough of that I can get a lot closer to through lines that don't take as much experimentation um when I did tag Zinc at FC and pz increases Theta and Alpha in the frontal lobe I started binging like crazy after that also gave me a wicked temper you should been doing FZ you should tag syn at FZ made me blink a lot and burp a lot yeah yeah you developed a tick of course you did High Theta should not be brought up at the midline front midline that's that's not the smart thing to do for most people um yeah you got you got disinhibited made you blink a lot you probably a squint you squint tick radar like one of these things those are really common with uh High I'm being held hostage yeah blink blink three times yeah exactly radar the transience uh of the snackers protocol means that it lasts for a few hours the next day you don't have any lasting effect and that's weird in ner feedback to create a somewhat reliable transi effect most things don't do that most things are either State shifters that kind of wear off over time or they're trait shifters that create change and there's kind of nothing in between interesting damn radar you total your car because of it whoa yeah yeah bringing up Theta too much can do that Alpha Theta can do that for some folks I know people that who have clients who've driven through like the parking garage after Alpha feta just got in the car like hit the gas and like boom into the wall because they were just out of it and I warn people not to like you know operate heav machinery for 20 minutes you know see how you feel afterwards Alpha is really powerful stuff it's I mean it's ridiculously powerful protocol for State shifts and and that's just audible right yeah it's Audio Only well there's different ways you can do alpha Theta it works visual as well but traditional alpha theta's eyes closed um lying back you know the the the generators of alpha are much stronger in the visual tissue with the eyes closed that helps a lot with the creating the State radar I hear you man you in you were following the instruction of your practitioner wasn't any of us because this show is for information information and educational purposes only please check we primary and honestly anyone who's using tag sync is not really a provider sorry I'm just gonna be you know inflammatory you just say tags nonsense it's one of these biohacker derive protocols it doesn't have a lot of basis in reality for those who don't know tag sync Theta Alpha Gamma sync but it uses hardware and designs and things like bio explor and bio era that can't measure gamma so all you're really doing is a poor man's Alpha Theta so you're doing Alpha Theta at FZ and pz by doing tag sync at FZ and pz so you're potentially creating an AB reaction of disinhibited high front midline Theta and there's all kinds of weird quirky stuff that happens when we get high front midline Theta so gamma can't be measured not reliably I I know this agreement in the field but I think you need like stupid expensive equipment to really get above uh 40 HZ 40 Herz is sort of annoying and can't really me is there a dollar per Hertz number like does it have to be 20 grand no it has to be ultr low impedance uh active electrodes basically and those things in our industry cost a grand or two each when done properly and so you get a 64 Channel cap and your your EG systems you know like I I did gamma work with a 64 Channel Bio semic cap active electrodes U my PhD work I I did neuro feedback at C3 and C4 betas and smrs or sham with a 64 Channel active cap on top of it the reason you use active electrodes is because you get a DC coupled signal it goes all the way down to quote unquote zero it lets you do different things SCP measurements I was looking at erps I didn't need DC coupled but I wanted to look at where do spatial um decomp decomposition of the Erp um you can do some things you can test networks of erps moving I ended up finding really the effect in what's called ersp or event related spectral perturbation a burst of spectral EEG in response to the neuro feedback beep that was creating the Erp basically that I measured but that system that we purchased for the lab um was 80 grand plus some service contracts at the time and it's a lot more now that same system is well over 100 Grand so you don't need a 64 Channel active electrod system to measure everything but even if you went for like a 32 Channel system with active electrodes and centered silver silver chlorides which isn't quite as sensitive you're still talking like 30 40 Grand in our in our You Know Field these days wow so it just becomes prohibitive to to do real gamma work is my is my take on it can I spitball out there video editor has a question you know we have the uh the sensors that go on the head do you think we'll get to the point where we can use lasers to measure what's going on that we never even have to touch the head to to pick up the energy that's coming off there are papers that show designs and tested in the physics Labs designs of non- contact electrodes they're called ultra high impedance electrodes or insulated electrodes what they are is they're rings of concentric material that are insulated and can sit 1 cimeter or a bit more away from the scalp and the the brain's EG is creating a signal differential within the ring electrode and it's an amplified electrode so you're picking up the the perturbations essentially under that and so you can imagine a cap a baseball cap you just put on and your EG is running um the big problem there the reason it hasn't happened yet isn't really one of technical engineering it's that we have 100 years this year 100 Years of EEG and when you do EG you have to compare the filters the reference the acquisition characteristics processing characteristics the same as every other EEG you're comparing it to to understand what you're looking at you can't look at an Erp compared to spectral waves compared to evoked information it's all you know references montages number of channels it all changes what it looks like on the far side so if we reinvented the electrodes we would have no Q databases we would have no sense of how to look at those at spikes in the in you know in automatic detection we wouldn't necessarily know a sleep stage looking at the changes because it wouldn't pick up the same thing this is why Meg isn't everywhere meeg is far superior for resolution than EEG it's the other dipole right EEG is picking up the dipoles that are perpendicular to the scalp and meeg is the other ones that are perpendicular to that and it's great resolution a little more expensive but doesn't match you know at that point 60 years of of history of literature so never caught on because you can't would that be the true definition of a dry sense answer because technically you could have an infinite number of data points with the light going to the Head picking this stuff up it would you know worrying about does electricity perturb light I don't know if it does if you didn't do light what would you do to pick up the energy you'd have to have an interference pattern like the electricity itself has to create interference in something that is measured um I don't I mean maybe maybe light does my concern about that you'd be causing it' be an active measurement' be causing change by Shing enough laser on the head to interact with the DG you're going to get EG changes um but uh the the non-c contct electro that I I described does exist there's a there's a group at in Cambridge in the UK at one of the universities that developed a cardiac version of this it's a ball it's literally a ball that you pick up and hold in your hand and you go and you sit in a chair like one of those 60s you know poopy chairs with the the the thing on top and the chair and the ball give the computer a sense of where to look and it images your EKG in real time in 3D no contact and no no no touch really really cool now it's kind of expensive really cool stuff but you know we don't really know how to use the information so getting more EEG or easier EEG I mean dry electrodes you mentioned those I was talking to someone today who's newish in the field and he's like w what about those $35,000 dry systems I'm like no stay away they don't no bad idea and the reason is again the field of EEG is built on a hundred years of looking at signals in a certain way dry caps most of them have Faraday cages around every electrode so you lose all of the intra electrode mixing which we rely on for interpreting the EG and the dry electrode ones do really bizarre things below four Herz and blow it up so High you can't use it so you can't get low thetas and Deltas you can't look at coherence in Phase I mean suddenly you know do you is that worth losing all that you know precision and specificity is that worth not having your hair gelled up for 10 minutes really you know I don't know I'm I'm I'm very biased because I spent I bought two $24,000 dry systems when they first became a thing and I returned one within the window and didn't return the other one and always wished that I had so if anyone wants to buy a 24 Channel dry system I have one you can you can buy for a few we need a really good narrow feedback equipment pawn shop we need a really good nari equipment manufacturer and vendor and supply chain we just don't have a lot of like you know it's all super super nichy or it's super low quality and there's and you know nothing in between so all right here's Ben helping me out I think charge could control light but there's very little little charge compared to voltage is needing Less Direct location of electrons you want to look at the field around it probably then of course VJ throws in oh no last call everybody last call for alcohol you don't have to go home but you can't stay here you don't have to go home you can't stay here come on Anthony you got that group going give me something juicy or is it just all politics people pounding their steering wheel no so um there's some new drugs that were announced there's a glycom drug for dementia um that that I it's being has really promising data right now or early on um there's a cancer drug that dementia patients when they took it they fall 70% less um so that just came out today actually um but yeah there is a lot of AI stuff and strange stuff happening I don't I don't uh they're using it to find new materials that was one interesting thing that since AI came out there's all sorts of new materials being discovered and patents being filed um it's like one of the first studies on the effect of AI on on science um and Innovation so that's cool we've seen these uh uh containers like you know shipping containers that are full of robot biochem Labs now and they're completely self-contained they have reagents they have organic chemistry stuff they got little machines and you just feed in like a here's a question we're wondering about and it goes and Designs the experiment does the experiment iterates through multiple experiments there's been a bunch of small molecules found for you know targeting cancers and things using that mechanism complete novel science so yeah being done for us at this point I'm really curious is and let me do you happen to know the name or anything like that I can probably I don't I probably dig it up though well I'll find it hey Jay's not here so we'll ask this one yeah we will use neuralink to do neur feedback in the future it wouldn't it wouldn't it would no longer be neuro feedback at that point you know uh besides neur neuralink has some functional uh basic problems with how you know what Elon Musk did was he solved the problem of cutting holes in heads he did not solve the problem of doing BCI with implanted electrodes he solved the problem implanting but there are a lot of problems s with putting electrodes against the tissue and expecting the signals that are under those electrodes to remain at all constant and expect the brain not to learn and move so while it is an advancement he really Advanced robotic surgery at a low level that's the advancement and you know he's his company neurolink has gotten in so much trouble for the way they've been doing brain research and animal research so you know I think we'll look back at this 10 15 20 years from now as like that one time they cloned Dolly the sheep 30 years ago yeah we could do it kind of okay let's learn more about genetics now but a serious note those robots that are coming out at what 30 grand whatever the number is I mean to watch a YouTube video and to put electrodes on the head that could be the new tech could be I mean I I think in a you know few years we'll have I mean the next step my prediction is the next step we're going to have is our is our AIS our chat gpts our sonets or whatever that are almost good enough to you know to be agentic to be like Tas driven and have knowledge bases on board they're just about good enough now to start doing that those agentic level Mission driven AIS are going to start living inside of autonomous shells surely so your robot will come home and plug itself in and then go out and do your shopping for you you know or your cleaning or your like we have moved into asimov's vision of the 60s now finally which is talk to my wife have you tried La last one last one from uh Ben have you tried passive dry Andy I don't know what passive dry is oh I assume yeah I've I've I've done oh passive dry passive electrodes that are dry um yes not for years it like 20 years ago there was a passive dry uh forehead sensor and it was the foreheads that was noisy for other reasons but I don't know what the te what the level of tech is right now with passive dry again my big issue with dry is the Faraday cage around every electrode so passive dry would have to essentially work almost like a wet electrode like I think saline is the answer if you don't like gooping your hair I think saline's passable potentially it has other management issues but um I think that's the solution if you don't like goop and gel figure out saline because that's probably easy to deal with and you know creates the same EEG would get with sticky paste Dr Hill where where do we send all of our users to check uh check you out and learn a little bit more oh yes come to Peak brain institute.com if you want to learn about neur feedback come to one of our offices for brain Maps or go to YouTube and look for Dr Hill D RH i l l and I do a weekly live stream and do some neur feedback and hanging out when when is that live stream Monday Monday at 6 PM Pacific or 8:00 pm Central and about an hour and I've got about a you know month's worth of those uh you know 20 30 of those lining up now for historical ones so if you're curious about how to biohack your sleep ADHD your stress well I do talk about neuro feedback in those live streams I talk about lots of non neuro feedback interventions that you might be interested in so for folks that like this sort of stuff go check that out Anthony Ramos you got a pretty big Tech group there can you just tell everybody where where it's at yeah it's called Science and Technology discoveries um at one point we were almost one of the bigger science groups on on Facebook but uh yeah and just uh uh you know there's a lot of good groups on Reddit and and in Facebook for no feedback and um there's some really cool people like your you got over 10,000 quit being so humble yeah yeah so yeah but it's allowed me to meet people like you guys so there you go all right hey everybody that chimed in Ben VJ Grace radar thank you thank you thank you for stopping by the bar having a drink and you know comparing notes of course after this show you're going to go check with your primary care physician first because this is for entertainment informational purposes only everybody please have a great night and I bid you a fond to do all right thank you everybody guys have a good evening