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Dr Drew and I were in the Next Room in my office and we plumbed in big monitors we like doing play byplay on the EEG like we're Sports casters and uh dissociative big swells of huge dissociative deltas and that's what you see generally when people do their thing is this like wow increase of slow disinhibited brain waves Deltas thetas Alphas but I have a pet psychic I'm working with and uh hey oh sorry I have I think we just went live I have to go mute my other computer um because it's making noise now but the pet psychic is doing two different things and you see the different EEG signatures based on what she's doing and she repeated it two months later so I'll be right back and turn off my other speakers while you're turning it off doctor I went to a psychic and they asked me my name and I just had to walk away they ask your credit card number should you know that already come on SO Newsday actually not when take this to the realm of uh not psychic interventions and not Mystic kinds of things which I I don't have a problem with any of that I'm I'm there but I had an opportunity many years ago to work with um a woman came to me she was a social worker and she specialized in people who had been uh best descriptions ritualistically abused in their childhoods and these people had multiple personalities I mean it's it's been called so many different things and having spent some time with a psych nurse I went yeah right uhuh that's a great excuse to get out of stuff in life yeah multiple personalities all right so but but I thought well you know let's let's see if I can help them they each there were five women each one had sort of a different agenda but a little by and and you know initially just like I'm sitting there going well let's see what we can do visual stuff right and um then one day one of the ladies was sitting in the chair and suddenly the EEG utterly changed like as if somebody else was sitting in the chair and I stood up and I thought you know either the electrodes have fallen off or she's falling asleep or something right I couldn't even justify that change but I said to her are you okay and she said why you ask I'm like uh no big deal really but I just there were some changes over that I'm looking at she goes nobody knows I have worked for years to make sure that nobody knows when I switch personalities I went well you might not want to have EEG electrodes on your head then yeah so it led me wow to trying to understand this and I talked to the social worker and I said would any of these because every single one of them because of their circumstances their personality could be triggered the social work was aware of all their triggers and one of the women volunteered to show me and her social worker came in and went through the process of triggering each personality so that I could see the EEG that represented that and by the time it was finished tears were rolling down my face I couldn't imagine how painful that must be one of the one of the personalities was that of a four-year-old child and her EEG looked like a four-year-old child um it was it's just like and and the one who was the the the most scary for her vigilance was the issue and that person had the smallest Theta band I've ever seen which would put them in a sort of vigilant State I would guess but anyway so yes the human EEG is certainly capable of a very range of whatever but most of us like to keep our EEG pretty stable pretty predictable because it runs so much of the rest of us were these were these individuals within this person human each aware of the others or some were and some won't some some weren't some more than others only true right at the end of uh healing you when you have true dissociative identity disorder you have generally less integration unless somebody's you know integrating uh very strange phenomena seeing did just when we think we've got it all figured out I wasn't running any kind of a qeg on them no I I have had qegs on people's heads when they go into alars and you do see big changes there you go he was wondering if it's connectivity m I mean sure connectivity is hard to read in real time because it's influenced by so much stuff including noise so I don't know it's a short answer about connectivity Anthony can you take care of Ben yeah Joy got it he just mentioned would you be able to see it with connectivity um I will say I think there's a paper out there that said that power and coherence and connectivity are kind of all correlated so if it's causing a an amplitude change um conceivably might see connectivity and coherence but well I think that I mean to tell Ben the the thing that I was watching the thing that I the events that I was seeing were not just like oh the connectivity changed or whatever it was literally like a four-year-old child had sat in the chair and all of the wave characteristics the slow slow waves that we would expect in that age group popped onto the screen but but the person was awake and alert and you know but they were talking and interacting like they were for wow so it was not it was not small pieces it was like the entire generation of whatever they were doing was different with each personality Anthony what's hot on your news and notes with you and John what do you guys been chitchatting about I mean John do you want to go first or me just news stories that we saw now I sent you something a couple hours ago what the heck was it well there was an fmri study about they found that the salience network I think said is twice the size in depressed patients yeah I thought that was interesting I I was hoping Jay could have some EEG correlate on as opposed to the fmri but it's a long research paper which I haven't had a chance to read yet but it's it's seemed interesting twice the size I'm not even sure study on uh addiction and paraphernalia with the salience network if you see your paraphernalia your salings network lights up with uh increased erps I believe increased p300s sure so that piece of it look who we got here there he is you summoned him John you you did I spoke his name and and here he is did your EEG change when you sumon him we hope not we hope not you're you're 0102 are you sure that doesn't nothing check your coordination John are you okay yeah know Jay we were just starting to talk about I think you probably got it I'm not even sure if you've had a chance to look at it there was an fmri study just published about depression and the salience network was oversized in people with depression I'm not even sure what size means frankly but and Anthony was asking if there if there was any EEG correlation from your perspective versus an fmri kind of study and by the way Anthony you said something about the small sample size in fmri studies yeah there's there's a ether paper that says most MRI Studies have 23 participants and so everybody's always ragging on EEG this is the standard or what have you so that's the one that made me laugh I was like Jesus that we that we're thrilled we get 23 people there was an issue in the neurology journal the Big Green neurology Journal that was focused on autism and the largest study they had structurally in the MRI was an N of seven yeah so you know yeah uh you you need to characterize a group group you need 25 30 people but that's to characterize a group that's a relatively you know consistent group if you have a group that's made up of a bunch of groups you need a whole big bunch to have a bunch of groups of about 25 within it so you you literally need thousands and thousands of people to do a good study uh to allow the phenotypes to separate out and the effect on any given phen type to be identified but the with respect to the anterior singulus salience Network it's the anterior singlet and the anterior insula on both sides is the largest contributor to that Network and it's described differentially in pain medicine as the distress network but there's nothing more Salient and distress so you know same thing uh but it's also identified in dir Ritter's machine learning algorithm looking for the drimia as depression being at the anterior singulate and uh the it since then has been identified as a more generalized category than just depression as a reward deficiency uh and that includes addiction um well reward deficiency as a as a category reward defic efficiency was pretty well characterized by Kent Blum uh over the last 20 years he's written about it so and it's it's a big one in addiction obviously we in our addiction research uh we found that onethird of the addicted population was driven by an anterior singulate drive not by an overarousal Drive two-thirds had over arousal and those two3 did get Alpha Theta as as their treatment not based on fact that they were addicted but based on their qeg endophenotype having that as part that as the end goal of of the training and the others got anterior singulate and depends upon what was up there you can have three failure modes to the anterior singulate so it's important to kind of look before you just jump in symptomatically with a specific protocol for that spot um TMS for instance U assume s it needs excitation and they get their double cone coil 1.5 to three Tesla magnet and they point it at the anterior singular to excite it if it's got beta spindal as a failure pattern they will make the person works acutely right then and there in the chair uh it it it's a it's not the dominant pattern uh Alpha is the dominant pattern if it's a little bit slow their stimulation will work if it's a Theta pattern their stimulation will work uh less likely uh that than the alpha pattern but it will work uh to to excite it the uh reward deficiency network does respond uh to um uh the camine psilocybin style um therapeutic approach again with the differentiation that the Andrew gave it that this is not the I'm some every day to make my brain more connected somehow but it it's a therapeutic effect of of a a well-intentioned and well-designed therapeutic intervention I wonder if that signature in that paper is the same or tapping into the same thing that Dr Andy luer found the coordinance measure that shifts under ssris you can tell about a week into SSRI Administration if the depression is going to lift based on the change in ratio of absolute power to relative power in the frontal areas I wonder if it's picking up the same shift the same uh frontal strial uh connectivity sounds like it might be it it's a good possibility I mean they're they're tapping into that uh as a as a feature uh it's it's not like cordance was picked up as a metric by a whole bunch of people um it it was a metric that was actually licensed and uh um Q metric trick got a license and one of our uh people that was trying to get a contract with UCLA picked up one to kind of get on their good side you know but there there was only a handful of licenses ever taken out for the cordance measurement it's um and if you ask most of the bigname experts in the EG field what is cordance they'll scratch their head in right kind of Wonder it's some kind of a thing I don't know UCLA did Rao absolute relative power at yeah and and if if they're both if they're both going in the same direction in absolute and relative that's cordant if one goes up and one one goes down for absolute and relative that's discordant or not concordant so there's a rationale to their uh uh to to their uh metric but it's not uh it's not something that's commonly used right uh I have seen it's it's actually executed in brain Vision analyzer um but I don't know that they bought a license for it so but that you know that it might they might have just given up on selling licenses yeah Dr ler was for a while would just give away the spreadsheet to calculate it to anyone who asked you know hey here's the spreadsheet here's how you calculate it have fun you know so he wasn't super uh he wasn't protecting the IP necessarily he was just you know I I a UCLA if you do things that are part of your research they get really annoyed if you don't like monetize it and try to share money with them a few people got in trouble at UCLA a few scientists have for like putting names on products and then not giving UCLA money back from that kind of the opposite of old academic Europe where the academics would basically give away whatever they were doing uh for free if they if you wanted it basically uh bur bomber would give you a a circuit diagram of how they're uh DC amp worked and the parts list so you could actually build your own uh DC amp and the code for their little it's like a pong game it's very simple code the little rocket ship that would fly across and it would randomly pick the trajectory and and the uh spot that would come off of and you could control the the speed of the rocket ship and the size of the window that you the person's slow cortical potential is controlling those are your two inputs to control all the rest it was all random number generator for the rocket and the speed you know anyway the he would give that to anybody who wanted to try and replicate their work so and he's still around he's one of the the very last legs of the table uh all all the rest of them have passed so uh Nils is still still around and and published recently on implanted brain computer interface uh speak to think you know think to talk and Ben soual has a question he wanted to know how that the lamama cortical drimia is defined mathematically was the word he used so well if you get the paper by vanest you it starts out with the mathematics of it uh but essentially uh the way they're looking for it uh they're looking for uh slowed Alpha at about six Cycles a second and looking for a gamma surround around it uh like a little donut and they look for the gamma using Hilbert transform uh which is a a a nonlinear uh approach to EEG done by uh um oh goodness blocking on his name um anyway he the the the Hilbert transform uh looks for the high frequency uh without power but with respect to rhythmicity uh it can also be identified using wavelets just as easily as an event related synchronization desynchronization but the difference is that the the gamma that they find is on on a consistent basis it doesn't chirp on and off like normal gamma uh so it's a pathological form and uh the slowed thalamocortical column is surrounded by the the gamma and the gamma is linearly related to the timidus intensity uh the the sensation of pain uh the rigidity or frozen postures and parkinsonism and to an aspect of the depression is but that's it's hard to explain that by comparison to the physical things okay Stan yeah go ahead D take care Stan Anthony we have another question by Stan here um I'll quote what do you make of the alpha rebound effect in case of training down persistent eyes open Alpha is it something that should be trained through or will it reduce over time I don't I don't believe in training through um training through let me tell you what it translates for me in a clinical practice if this protocol I have worked with a client on produces a negative effect there's something wrong with what I taught it I should get no effect sometimes or some positive effect but if it gets a negative effect something about the protocol was wrong so the question about training through any of it no I I think what you can do Stan is successfully persist in teaching your brain how to do exactly that over and over and over again so if that's the state you'd like to establish training it and waiting until you train through it might be a great way to do it also there's many more than one way to train Down Eyes Open Alpha so L anybody has anything else on that one i' just like to throw out there uh since our last chat last week Brett Favre has come forward and uh said he's got Parkinson's did you catch that Anthony yeah we did and I sent a followup that they think as many as um one-third of former NFL players have uh undiagnosed CTE chromatic chronic traumatic and seil opathy the show we have coming out on neuron noodle tomorrow morning Jay addresses that uh specifically uh Parkinson's and repeated hats not so much ALS like I thought Jay you set me straight I think more I have an N of one for Parkinson's um as you all know I have a clinical practice and my mom was diagnosed when she was like uh 73 or so with Parkinson's um I knew it all along but you know she went and had the formal diagnosis done and so I said okay the first thing we do is break my rules uh I want you to start on every medication the neurologist suggested for you and you're sitting in my chair five days a week we lived close enough it was possible so okay um I did very unfancy work with her but it was clear that the motor system was definitely affected right her gate had changed she was walking with a cane because it was dangerous to walk without it uh her hand tremors were pretty significant um and you know in general she was sleeping well it was so many typical kinds of things uh the doctor put on some Carbidopa again very typical Mark I had worked with a lot of Parkinson's patients in my visiting nursing work so I was pretty familiar with the medication route and essentially the medication rout is okay if that much doesn't do it anymore take more and then if that doesn't do it take more and that's kind of the pressure there's not a lot of mixing there's a few but mostly it's just increasing the doses so I was expecting that uh we did probably about 25 or 30 sessions with her and she let me know that it was necessary for her to go down to Florida where they had their winter home because my niece was starting college and she felt she had to get her started so she went away for a month and when she came back well before she went away she would come in having no cane and I'm like where's your cane she goes oh I forgot it to me that's one of the best things I see people who are working with assisted devices if they start forgetting it they aren't needing as much um the Tremor was gone her gate was greatly improved uh and then she went away to Florida she's gone for a month she came back the Tremor was back the cane was back you know I'm like did you not take your pills while you were gone she goes oh no I I took them she timer everything and I went well that's weird so you're telling me that what was way was the Nur feedback so okay get back in the chair we'll do more and um she was the first remote system I ever set up it was more fun than anyone can imagine to deal with my parents in Florida my dad who's an engineer my mom no I told you the yellow one my father was very hard of hearing no it's the blue one but we we sort of managed some remote training this was before zoom and all the good things came in and um about 10 years later now she's in her early 80s and she started falling down all the time again the Tremors were gone and the gate was improved so I was and she had not had any increase in dosages so that was that was very unusual I thought but then um a physical therapist came in the house you know to assess and everything else okay when were you diagnosed oh no I'm sorry there's no way you were diagnosed that long ago you would be far more advanced if you had been diagnosed that long ago so I took away from that the fact that the neuro feedback might have had a really dramatic effect on her Parkinson's I would say 80% of the people I've worked with that have parkinsonian phenomena have very strong change and about 20% have zero impact so um but the people that do have change the biggest effect I see is the meds start working better and better and better many of them can suddenly sleep through the night without waking up to take more meds because the Tremor rigidity doesn't flare up the same way so the meds basically it seems to slow down the progression pretty aggressively especially in younger people um that's in my experience but uh once someone's more progressed with strong Tremor strong disregulation of focus I I found to be kind of hard to work with with classic ner feedback in my experience hard to make change Lisa tatran has done some nice um work that that's a little bit more systematic than just an a one anecdote there's nothing wrong with an anecdote in fact most clinical breakthroughs are based on an anecdote so uh we need to share them when we have them but um uh Lisa has actually got a bunch of them so it's like a case series instead of a case study and she she shows some very good results and um there's others that have done work with SMR uh the the Thompsons share anecdotes about their work in the SMR and and Parkinson's but um to tie back into Brett um not not everybody who has a Tremor has parkinsonism oh you know and the misdiagnosis of parkinsonism in somebody who's had head injury is not uncommon dementia pugilistica the boxer's brain mimics parkinsonism now not to say that Muhammad Ali didn't have parkinsonism there but there are a lot of boxers that end up having Parkinson tremor that don't progress and they they they simply have static andil apathy of post-traumatic and sephy opathy and it CTE is a u the quote that we heard a little earlier of one third of professional um NFL that that was of retired NFL people onethird of them thought that they had CTE now um you know who's to argue with them you know they're bigger than me so I'm not going to argue with them but U uh at the same time they're thinking that they have CTE may not be the most exact measurement of it and it may be an undercount probably is survivorship bias right people that have significant issues hit 37 retire hit 42 and have gone off the deep end or you know have have left the shuffled off the Mortal coil because of yeah significant Behavioral you know it's very common for these athletes who are that hardcore to hit their mid-40s and basically check out because they just are you know broken and I think a lot of that is probably head injuries and not just depression because their roles were changed or something so and you can have post-traumatic incopy that mimics almost any psychiatric presentation because after all what is a psychiatric diagnosis other than a cluster of behaviors you know the the uh they don't use biomarkers so uh you know the it's it's an awful thing to end up being in a a sport that you enjoy doing that you know is going to end up having long-term negative uh consequences and you know you think a a gigantic salary is U an offset of it but it not all of them get the gigantic salaries but most of them end up with the traumas so it's um it's it's it's a very tough circumstance it's they're they're better treated now than they were historically I mean the put them straight back in the game used to be the nature of it and now they have protocols that they have to follow before they put him in the game too early so uh yeah it's uh they do a better job of it but it's still uh that it's in just it's a natural part of a sport where you have that kind of head trauma does anybody remember the name of the movie that was done more than 10 years ago and uh Will Smith right the neurologist concussion up who upset the NFL so badly yeah that one if you haven't seen that one ladies and gentlemen watch I even wonder about you know you know writing on was saying you know that the cross contamination of of of reasons you know with you know more and more Parkinson's and I think because we tend to see Parkinson's a lot in females we kind of dismiss the notion of sports um but we've talked about this before in terms of more of the fragility um of the the female um anatomy in terms of the likelihood of having um you know Whiplash type of of head injuries so Jay do you have any insight for all of us in terms of how you can differentiate between a head injury and True Brew uh Parkinson's because I know that will affect our outcome and and how we um we look at things we all know as you said that the the neuro can be a potentiator of the meds but that's presuming you're on the right meds well first of all use the EG qg prognostically not diagnostically and you're using it correctly uh using it to go backwards and figure out exactly what caused something isn't really a fruitful use of it uh but figuring out how to go forward and make things work better is a perfectly appropriate use of it so J no then but uh um you've got to also understand that not all parkinsonism is either traumatic or parkinsonism as one thing that everybody knows that they used to always get you know older folks got it now they understand that there are locations in the country where there's a a location where there was a lot of tce is one of the chemicals but there's a whole range of chemicals that are now linked to Parkinson's type Progressive dementias and um so here in Canada with that unfortunately yeah way we discovered Parson's like you know the way we figured out some of the deep dopamine systems was because of that big drug overdose thing in La that happened in the early 80s was all this spiked um heroin or something spiked with a pesticide and you had all these 25 and 30-year-olds showing up in ears with Parkinson suddenly there's if you go online there's a nice story about it it was Berkeley and it was MDMA that was badly made uh they all partied with ecstasy and the next day uh instead of just being serotonin their dopamine systems were totally fried they had Advanced Frozen posture they're called the Frozen people punch frozen people into a browser you're going to find a nice story about how they were frozen some of them got sent over to Europe for fetal tissue implants dopamine implants and unfroze them uh but some of them you know I mean them to go get um the stem cells removed because they didn't stop growing yeah and they ended up with uh dopamine tissue going the other direction becoming excessive they had to go back and have the tissue removed years later yeah so anyway what we've what we've got is is that the brain uh when uh Disturbed with trauma or uh some chemicals can end up with a degenerative change that's um going to be diagnosed as parkinsonism like it's a single thing but they'll identify it based on tremor and and uh the inability to initiate progressively detering ability to initiate uh which is why Falls happen you know if you're going to walk you have to step forward and if you kind of you're intending to walk and you make that initial lean but you can't get the foot to go uh you're going to go down and um the the the um uh the implants that are done now uh for advanced parkinsonism to unfreeze them and to turn off Tremor end up being a reasonably uh expensive but a reasonably good alternative for people that have advanced Parkinson's syndrome um the the the subthalamus basically can be stimulated and that that can end up turning all all the Tremors off uh I if the theam drimia is a loss of an input the stimulator basically puts in an input artificially turning off the drimia so the you know and Dirk D Ritter puts in an implant into the into the auditory cortex it overlies the auditory cortex and after they put it in then they figure out which one of the little pairs of electrodes that are on this little centimeter long simulator pad has like 10 pairs on them so they they'll figure out which one of the which one of the electrode pairs ends up giving them the best result uh but that they basically put an artificial stimulation in where there was a loss of an input from the thalamus they just put an input from the cortex down and that turns off the idus here's a keyword Grabber digital OIC what can't OIC cure is anybody coming in and say I want to have something like this but I don't want to take the shot is that picking up any business for anybody they're basically working on the anterior singulate hey it's an easy spot to access we we've worked with people that had Eating Disorders OCD um depression uh gambling addiction various things so uh if if you don't fix the anterior singulate the drug addiction that is pointed at will find something else it's you do symptom substitution sometimes the right insulin as well for eating for you know body and feeding type phenomena so you can do a protocol across the uh across the right insula essentially you have to get behind the ear there to get it right you can't get the insula from over at the right temporal because there's other tissue on top of it you have to go behind and get across the signals you do like fp1 to M2 and that activates the right insul we like to catch it from CZ to the temporal because that bipolar pair actually shows the signal from it very very well uh in the Raw EG you can actually see insula content as a phase reversal with nothing happening at C3 but CZ and T3 or t7 are out of phase so it's coming from C3 laterally underneath it hitting CZ and the temporal so that pair shows it really well now there's current studies showing Meg training of the in insula uh uh can can end up targeting it really well uh so mg can Target a deep Source without any problem uh but so can es Loretta uh you can Define the source and and use that for feedback um I I would stay away from zcore stuff with respect to this but you you can uh locate the spot and train the activity at that spot without too much difficulty that was actually shown in lubar lab first by Marco Kito and and they they actually showed that you could control feta at the anterior singulate which is the one kind of OCD that medication really doesn't touch very well so if you're doing a medication versus neuro feedback uh um horse race pick somebody with anterior singulate Theta as the as the person that has to be treat treated or the group that has to be treated and you'll find that that's an in intractable Pharma group but it's a n feedback we train her all the time otherwise noce nail biting or songs in the head that's front midline excessive tonic Theta you get that disinhibited stimulus seeking obsessiveness not ritual process driven obsessiveness so what what's the success rate with those zic versus neuro feedback uh can you give me an objective number anybody I to whatever o can do for what Pete Pete we we've met in person okay yeah you don't think I've tried every spot on my head and every combination okay so so okay first of all I wasn't G to say this before but the presumption of it being a food addiction is not why people are fat some people are but it's not the answer your metabolic rate your lifestyle your eating it's like there's a bunch of different reasons too it's all it's not never the one it's that part of the brain let's go there for a few for some people it will be but um you know my understanding of OIC is a very simple one right now they have figured out and don't forget every part of your brain gets some little bit of that but they figured out how to slow down the digestive system so there are consequences to doing that and not everybody suffers terribly but some do but literally the time that the food sits in your stomach is longer the time that it takes to progress to the rest of the digestive tract is longer so of course you retain a sense of fullness longer and if it backs up often enough try not fully digesting your food and see just how hungry and eager you are to eat it turns that all off so uh they I don't think that the activity of zic is much brain oriented although the brain obviously impacts all of that digestive process but if you can slow the digestion down they're also starting to see secondary studies looking at side effects and they're seeing some cognitive effects being hinted about muscle mass changes being hinted about and that's probably not all like malabsorption or changes in absorption something going on there so I'm just loving watching this I mean I'm always a bit concerned when you know one new chemical one new drug is a Panacea for everything um but you know joy I love what you contributed but um yeah many many other things I mean that could explain you know why you quiet why you calm you know that Full Belly uh calmness um yeah I'd love to watch it but again I'm really concerned about this Panacea thing same thing with us right I mean we can't cure everything what's an earworm what's an earworm what's an earworm what's an earworm what's an earworm what what song in the head is that the thing that JFK had that is that what the no no no no that's he had some kind of worm s yeah yeah that's an actual worm a Star Trek worm that goes in your ear I thought ear worm was how they work into the brain worms you know yeah VJ thanks for the question though I I I think we're talking again about uh anterior singulate so you you generally see a Theta failure mode or Theta excess when songs are in your head so you can talk at that you can look at your que you look at your q and a bottle of tequila one I find as well is when these things occur like a key thing for example with individuals with insomnia they get these I mean some people have you know it's not just the preservative thinking that keeps somebody awake um it's also these things that cycle through the head they they they not necessarily negative things so yeah that's singulate I tell you it's a it's a big one yeah we published about insomnia and beta spindles at CZ and that does predict insomnia but it's not the only kind of insomnia you can have anterior singulate uh rumination that keeps you awake that's not driven by by the by the orexin wakefulness drive uh the the CZ beta is just the ereon wakefulness drive it's not it's not rumination so you gota you got you can't just look at the symptom of insomnia and assume CZ is the problem with beta if you see CZ beta as a problem you can predict the insomnia however yeah so there was a question up here some somebody was asking about the best way to train I've lost it there let me see if I can move this down a little bit train memory Joy [Laughter] no example hey I had anesthesia sort of you know um no the question was so we could train insula for deeper awareness with CZ minus um is that t7 okay can I I just want to make a very giant generalization to questions like this okay it's something that has become part of my life more recently my experience of the Nerf feedb field is Extreme wonderful generosity when we get together with meetings mari's representing us all at isnr um we are sitting there talking to each other oh I found this this year oh I found this this year and we share and share and share and it comes across it it was CZ minus t7 it was great right and it occurs to me and this happened with me Andrew with Larry I was working on sensory integration and I talked to Larry about it and he came back and said no what you said doesn't work doesn't work I'm like what no I have a dozen people here who it worked with okay what we neglect different population well well well it was same right but here's the thing that putting that's like I want to go to France where well I want to go to France it's it's the Geography okay but he didn't say anything there about what frequencies we're going to train I want to go train up and down and then it gets even more fine-tuned how are you going to manage giving that information to the brain are you going to I just did a a consult yesterday and we ended up realizing that she was going to have to change the way she was inhibiting this kid's Theta that was going to have to be the star of the session she was going to have to put more inhibit on Theta and give it up in the other frequencies that she was rewarding and inhibiting because this kid's Thea was completely out of whx session after session after and it wasn't changing yeah if I could jump in here Joy um this is one of the things I'm actually presenting here in isnr on on Friday um It's actually an app but that's beside the point but one of the things you have to look at is mechanisms of action are not necessarily the same for each person even though you're working at the same location the other thing I I think it was Andrew that mentioned your population okay lived experience is so so so important you know uh a white cat is not a tabby cat is not a black cat is not a Siamese cat yeah they're all cats but you know lived experience maybe that's a bad example I might be thinking about um but yeah there's so many variables in here and I think at these meetings yes we share all of that then we take it back to our own clinics and instead of saying it doesn't work we look at why did it work for my colleague and why is it different with my clients so you either support the theory or tear it down or reconstruct theory around Theory until it becomes solid practice um and I think that's one of the key things in terms of really really building careful before you slash somebody down you know if they've got the data uh look at it because see incredible variation outside of good old standard ADHD but even there there's around five different points of variation to say the least but you got to go deeper into it right yeah and whether you're doing you know looking at Raw signal sign signals everybody knows I'm the amplitude and frequency doc here um but we all have our methods looking a bit deeper Joshua how's the Pacific Northwest I hate to nudge you but I miss you bro it's raining it's just raining how's that depression doing it's it's good just raining as usual not November yet H out here there's some sort of chemical spill in the neighboring town and we got a notification this morning in the news was like great they don't know what it is but they know they spilled something is this around Seattle is that where you are no I'm in near Portland Portland ouch we're all good here yeah yeah just working away uh we got six people busy busy busy this is are these School problems coming in yet yeah I think it's a good diverse population um but we're starting to see some of the school kids come in they usually come in in January after the first round of report cards all right I thought relate to that like that January is when you get the school kids in pretty quiet now for most of us as as people figure out whether they have problems or no problems with with the school kids that is yeah I think we talked about it before it's around week six or so that people kind of start to question things and then uh yeah then you get the failure coming in in January parent parent teacher Council sessions so you need that ADHD diagnosis sorry you need that add diagnosis so you can get the extra study time for test well as I said nothing wrong with extra study time I think that really helps a lot of people calm down and and be able to focus but as we mentioned before um big big issue with not having to do the work um or not taking some special attention at the brain but looking at different ways people can receive and process information sorry that came out wrong not just looking at how we can train uh but also how we how individual processes yeah it's a marriage I mean any of us who work with kids um most of us are not only doing Neurotherapy we're looking at Neurotherapy we're looking at the environment we're looking at teaching methods we're looking at processing methods and that's where you really really really can hone in unless youve got straightforward Theta beta with straightforward beta SMR you know at CZ and and and C4 um but there's so so many other things contributing to Scholastic difficulties Anthony's in middle of a hurricane or about to and I don't know where his texts are coming from but uh I'm making sure he's representing uh here keep him alive John John how's La you got anything going out there everybody's saying in La yeah everybody's fine here Joy Joy and Andrew and I are enjoying the good weather it's like you know 80 degrees sunny it's beautiful rubbing in my face over there John yeah just a little bit just a little bit maybe we'll see weather in January day I don't have enough hours in the day I have two as of this week now I have four people on a waiting list right two of them are school kids because the parents are starting to recognize uh oh well there's only so many you know I'm sure John well well anybody works with kids works with this one well they could come in at 4 o'l until 4:45 on Tuesdays in Thursdays and Saturdays that's right why because it's got Cub Scouts and K send them to me send them to me for remote training this this is a really good point Andrew these are not families that would be good candidates for home training yeah yeah I no I've worked with it I I tried the beginning I thought it would be so easy to do this but you know what they were so tired when they got home from soccer practice we just forgot about doing it oh well I don't know how to we just thought it was yeah home training is not easy it's it's a whole different set of skills and and client support that has to be brought on I have coaches on seven days a week 12 hours a day every client has a real live chat that they're working with it takes a different kind of boundary different kind of communication different kind of support it's not a thing that most therapists want to do because it creates a different kind of relationship um I'm a biohacker and a coach and a scientist so I'm just kind of like trying to constantly educate people and it doesn't really matter if they're a kid with ADHD or a CEO who's drinking too much or an athlete who's trying to you know recover from an injury they got goals I got I got techniques and I have coaches to help you know support setup um and so I take a very agnostic approach when it comes to where you do it and I get better effects from my home clients than I do in the office because my home clients do more neuro feedback they get more sessions in yeah I hear you John but I do want to uh jump in on where where Joy left off um at our Clinic we will not see children after 6 PM period we in fact hours they're too tired it's a waste of the the parents money the parents time the child's time our time etc etc the other thing is we do the assessment on the child we look at the child's EEG Etc you also have to do a mini assessment on the parents their Drive their purpose Etc one of the things I talk to parents about is like oh well they can't miss school how how much school air quoting are they missing by not dealing with the learning disability or the ADHD or the behavioral problem etc etc this is a fundamental um question uh that that or you know the red herring here is oh they can't miss school sorry I misexpressed again but I think everybody knows what I mean um you know I always say missing a bit of school to get this done over the next few months is absolutely imperative um as Joy was also saying you know in terms of the fatigue level of the kids I think we talked about this before you know what good parents have to do what makes the pressure on parenting your your little girls have to have dance lenses your little boys have to play soccer your your girls and your boys have sorry I'm being genderist but they have to pay uh play football they've need their music lessons their second language lessons their family of origin language lessons etc etc these kids are exhausted so sometimes a lot of these um kids their data is high because they are tired they're not performing in school because they are tired and we haven't even Lo looped in all the time they're spending on their devices and what time they're getting to bed anybody want to pick up on my rent yes no I'm with you 100% on that this is about life priorities you know I don't care what what population of people you're work kids it's anybody you know you're a high-powered executive y y y you got to make a decision what do you want to do with your brain you know what do you what do you want out of this I remember uh Santiago was talking about that given the choice here's your choice you can you can work yourself to death or you can have meaningful family relationships it's your choice which one do you want Santiago is very clear that they pick family they there also a tiny bit of a false equivalency when it comes to kids though because the parents are saying look my kid is scheduled to within an inch of their life and they're doing all these productivity things that are super important I have no time for neuro feedback and what I say is well a couple things one is if you add neur feedback to the mix all the other stuff gets easier plasticity goes up and the sport learning the weightlifting the language gets easier and two they can sit and do neuro feedback while doing their homework yeah are they gonna sit still for three or four you know times a week then set up the wires you don't have to look at it you don't have to pay attention to it it's mostly involuntary so if you can do it while doing other stuff and you're this busy and it helps other things it ends up being more about you know can you structure time enough to get it done not do you have the time to do it I don't quite say that to thr in um Andrew one of the things that we do that is extremely successful is uh training while tasking so they're doing homework while we're brain driving that's an extremely successful method one thing that Mario I don't know how much our experience match up um I've been working with kids for a very long time now yeah and my experience with the school situation the parents are not at all adverse to I'll go get them early I'll pick them up but then the school says look they haven't been in school for enough hours this week they're G to get held back a year or you don't graduate so I have not found that neuro feedback um becomes an acceptable reason to take them out of school but I I get parents on the well he doesn't have to be school until 8:00 could we do a 6:30 a.m. s session yeah sure if you can get the keys to unlock my office I'm not but I think I think it's all of it I mean yeah the the school in terms of the attendance but my point is if they if they can't follow and they're falling um behind with 100% attendance you know you do the calculation um also the you know the profile that you said that the parent is fine pulling them out it's the teachers but we also have the opposite where um it it's the parent so yeah I think it comes from all sides and that's really really important to know simply because you you need to know who to talk to John can you take care of talibo and then Joy can you take care of Ben what does Ben want to know well talibo when working with a child with autism what should be PRI prioritized first should sleep meltdowns and inflammation be addressed individually or can they all be treated Sim simultaneously with neur feedback yes depends okay depends it depends I recommend them on Long plane trips one one point that I would bring to Tabo is that sleep is one of the easiest things for us to measure you finding out if the nurve feedback is settled in correctly or not you know it's an involuntary process falling asleep staying sleep sleeping among your sleep cycles successfully uh oh um it's all important so sleep is going to be one of the things that I'm going to want to track right so I'm probably going to work on something that would help with sleep and that's going to depend on what you describe to me it isn't the same thing for every person then we get into like John was saying yes um doing some very simple just even CZ training for an autistic child you can tune in all kinds of things that they become more aware eye contact more relationship these are all the beginning stages showing that the neuro feedback is being successful so at that point you might start to prioritize but I will tell you what I experienced parents come in they tell me okay we need to do this this and this great example I had a a nonverbal um eight-year-old girl with severe autism and um the goal she came in with stay in the school building because the school people were having trouble chasing her out of the building she was running wild out of the building and in dangerous situations so our first goal was keep her in the building I'm like okay I think we can do that so mother came in one day she started laughing she goes they haven't said a word about whether it's working or not but she said but the teacher today said now I want her to pay attention I'm like ah they keep raising the bar so that's the kind of stuff you're going to see different priorities start shifting under different circumstances so sometimes you have to let the brain decide where it's going to employ all this stuff so it's not about you picking the priorities always that's good you got no and Tabo just to go back to the inflammation question you really have to figure out uh the nutritional platform of the child yeah if they're not getting proper nutrition neuro feedback is not going to be as successful as you'd like it to be it's fighting an uphill battle you have to solve that problem the the question asks about treatment of autism as though it's a thing and right uh it it's a DSM thing and that's a pile of stuff right so um what what we need to do is look at the individual rather than the DSM classification and at that point the the things that need to be done first second third kind of flow out from the specifics of the case if there's discharges in the temporal lobe you can have uh acting out aggressive behavior that can be temporal loob epilepsy even so that you have to look at what the EG is doing and and uh what the behaviors are and match them up and you you're this is personalized medicine and evidence-based treatments so can't go with a generalized DSM category which isn't personalized at all uh we have to actually look at some data what's the difference between hyperfocus and flow are they the same thing not even close go hell no no no in a very very simplistic and Andrew J but in a very simplistic sense I look at this as like hyperfocus is a lack of neuroplasticity okay we get kids in here with horrible attention spans but man when they're involved in building a Lego that they want the the house has to stand up and move before they notice right they're hyperfocused they're stuck they don't have any flexibility in their attention flow demonstrates extreme flexibility the ability to doing this and do this you're not you're not hyperfocused in flow you look real focused but you're not in the same neurological State all right all right all we're at one hour that's it always leave the audience wanting more the esteem panel thank you for showing up like Joshua Moore is on the panel so we always leave them wanting more here oh good one good one we will have our regular Thursday show tomorrow to be talking about what we didn't get uh discussed here and like I said every Wednesday 6: PM Central Time 4 pm Pacific and then occasionally Singapore which would be Thursday morning sometime he in he's in h Chicago so INR okay got it for everybody that's in Chicago come by the Cubby Bear Friday night I will be performing uh very mediocrely somebody wants to come by and uh laugh okay all right everybody hey great live chat see you in a week if you laugh at his bass playing you'll find out why they call it an axe oh the bird oh I'm losing the internet