🔴 Live NeuroNoodle Q&A: Ask the Experts! Neurofeedback, Brain Health & More | 10/9/24 🧠✨

well here we oh Dr Marie Dr Marie hey there I I I can't believe I'm saying this unmute Dr Marie I can't hear anybody give me a second you are you're good you're good hey we got uh Dr Marie we got Saul rosenal here Saul please tell us about that awesome uh conference you have on the northeast wow so uh we're coming up to the Northeast region bio feedback society's annual conference uh it is the first weekend in November um it's the first one we're going to do live or in person since pre pandemic but it's actually G to be hybrid so if you can't make it to Philadelphia um it will be uh streamed as well but it's right outside the Philadelphia Airport um that we and Jay's going to be our keynote speaker on Friday night and then there's a whole bunch of different sorts of things a little bit of a different kind of conference I think than most others so it should be fun how how big's this screen gonna be for J alone or for everyone else I don't know it's a good question but uh yeah so if you go to go to nrbs dog to register and to to look uh to find out more about it so nrbs how long has it been around nrbs has been around I would say 20 to 30 years or so um I'm actually doing a project where I'm interviewing some of the old presidents to kind of get a little history so that's kind of a wait there's been more than you I am not president I am just a a a lowly board member fine with me no Mitch Mitch Sedar is the president and Angelica Sedar is the executive director husband and wife yep exactly little little nepotism there I guess but that's okay Saul I have a question for you oh hey Joy hello how are you I'm good it's been a million years s's a good buddy yay um so I will share a perspective of a former isnr president um that would be you yeah yeah um but the the issue was so at the at the meeting where we oh wait wait a minute what is oh sorry Joy there goes the neighborhood now Sun City of the the West Wind J Gan only momentarily should we sing him happy birthday happy birthday to you happy birthday to [Music] you birth J thank you foring by now I know they why they make you play the bass I don't know soon so wow oh Jay thank you for showing up man better than what I'm doing for you man 75th birthday sus Sun City are you about to register everybody here in about an hour or two I in fact I'm only on for a very very bit I have to go change uh out of this scrub to the sunon city scrubs and absolutely go down to the reception for the evening uh for people that are popping in uh but it's for the next three days and yeah we got 30 people scattered across the world uh for live streaming it so um we we'll we'll try to behave you can't even not keep a straight face on that one Jay I'm doing my best oh so so so Jay you're gonna you're gonna like you're gonna stream it record it and people can get it there yeah they can't go there in person you know you won't get the full effect but yeah but the the content will be there from the talks and uh you know there there's some I think talks that are well worth attending and some discussion panel discussions that'll try and stir it up a little bit so but U Jay is there anything you want to leave us with before you go any pending thoughts that you want to stir up the pot with uh well you know uh I have to uh thank Anthony for uh beating the street for articles uh interesting cross pollination between uh forever chemicals in blood work that correlate not not that it was a study that uh looked at dosing kids with it but the uh the the pfas uh correlation with with 80 minutes of less sleep and the pfas are known to mess up the genetics of sleep regulation so that we've known that sleep has been not so good because we saw the thetab beta ratio which the FDA at one point actually accepted as a diagnostic metric but it doesn't I mean it's no good uh they accepted at just about the time that it was no good um uh but that you know the Norms of of uh three standard deviations being 5 to one u in 1999 by 2006 Yuri's data showed a 7 to one as three standard deviations out so anyway we're um we're looking at uh chemicals that end up inter interacting with uh neurology uh so it's psychon neuroimmunology basically and uh the the less sleep per night has been observed and its impact on the Theta beta ratio has been observed now we we have been shown to help with sleep and sweep Sleep Quality and all of that uh I don't know that the the chemical effect is a permanent uh uh problematic uh change or whether it's something that can be treated but undoubtedly over time we're going to find out you know the world's got uh pfas and microplastics everywhere so okay that's that's my question about it because I glanced at the study and what I took away was the genetic changes that these chemicals are making so you're right I mean typically sleep is one of the first things that we see change and modulate but those aren't usually people that we know of have genetic problems mixed in right so what do you think our chances are when we're dealing with genetic I mean other stuff that has genetic foundations I don't I think there's only so much we can do well you know those genes don't all expressed there's the whole phenotype [Music] and epigenetics I mean let's not forget the little Epi in front of that right how how many generations for it to come in and how many generations for it to come out you know well that's the next question is does this get passed down genetically yeah yeah do those changes happen that way too because are we looking the next crop of kids coming in with sleep problems and we can't really ding those because they have a different cause I don't know well so far we've seen major Improvement in quality of sleep with neur feedback approaches the beta spindle is not the only kind of insomnia you can have an obsessive compulsive Drive that'll keep you awake as rumination to Independent of the beta spindle which is the wakefulness drive driven by ereon totally different chemistry but uh the the the uh the whole psychon neuroimmunology uh shows the the the cross disciplinary depth uh that we really are dabbling with with the playing with the brain yeah and also let's just not forget common sense as they say which is get into bed turn the lights and the devices off and get yourself your seven to eight hours in an adult and a little bit more as a kid right we can do all kinds of Neurotherapy all kinds of things but if you're not in your bed not being if you're anything but a teddy bear if you're concerned about pfas is you also don't have uh the the uh fragrance left in your sheets and uh softeners and things like that which are all full of PS so uh we surround ourselves with the uh the the chemicals and um some of them uh basically because of your job as well uh uh fire and uh uh Refinery workers that have to wear uh noax uh they're they're they're walking around with a cancer risk exposure on their clothes so Jay before you go uh s Rosenthal stopped by to say hello to you and wish you a happy 75th W my goodness I blew the group up big full screen there he is yeah yeah hanging out uh he's got uh we have Susan City this week and then Saul uh when is your gig coming up yeah so not Northeast region uh is the first weekend of November which you are you're you will be giv the uh keynote Friday night I believe yeah I I've got to talk for them too you know y big screen well um we'll see if I look the same I don't know whether anybody's gonna bid on something this short it's only been a year since they they chopped it off so that they might leave it be for another year till it's a respectable size to bid on J before you go radar Ashwood ask how does neuro feedback affect someone who's had their adrenal glands removed or has had some sort of adrenal insufficiency like a pituitary removed well you do need your pituitary don't have it taken out uh mine is missing for a reason uh I had a brain tumor that destroyed it uh but you need your adrenals to produce cortisol and as bad a reputation as cortisol has it modulates your immune system and without it I would have gone a long time ago I ate corol in the morning I ate corol in the afternoon um you know hydroc corazone as a steroid um so I I my life depends on the stuff um otherwise my immune system would have taken me out years ago um so your adrenals are there to modulate your cortisol level uh which modulates based on stress and you can burn them out with chronic high levels of stress and arousal and quite often with the use of chemicals um uh to to Jack yourself up too long too hard too and you know uh you can burn them out as well but when you lose your adrenals you're going to look very very depressed and classic bipolar has beta spin spindles in the EG in the manic state it doesn't switch to a an alpha dominant pattern during the depressed phase their adrenals give out when the adrenals recover they're back and for those that have cycling bipolar if you're in the depressed phase and your endocrinologist gives you a cortisol challenge it'll pop you back uh up into the maniki state in a Flash but it's only for a flash because you're going to burn right off uh it's not a natural source but uh uh the adrenals are part of the HPA axis assuming you have a p in the middle of it um I'm uh I'm I'm short of a p that's all does it affect nor or norepinephrine uh uh actually norepinephrine is uh going to be generated in the uh uh a Brin stem uh and that it's a systemic chemical uh and uh norepinephrine helps set the alpha frequency so if you have too much norepinephrine you can be grossly over aroused and uh tuned too fast it makes beta and speeds up Alpha and uh if you don't have enough of it you can end up having Alpha that's way too slow uh it it's an important aspect of your Alpha frequency tuning the cortex has some influence but it's Minor by comparison to the brain stem and and Thalamus the reticular nucleus of the thalamus and the uh the other nuclear bodies in the thalamus basically set the base frequency that you've have as your background Rhythm it's essentially like a sampling rate if it's slow you have a low resolution and your semantic and declarative memory doesn't really work so well if it's faster all that clicks real well so the the tuning is important and and to a lot of extent what we do in neur feedback ends up being tuning the alpha right and getting it out of the spots it shouldn't be in so um uh but the tuning of the alpha ends up making a lot of adjustments over level of norepinephrine uh the norepinephrine modulators for the kids that have beta spindles the clonidine guanosine is used and they reduce both peripheral and Central Norine nephrine which is why you can't just jack up the dose because you you'll drop the blood pressure out from underneath your kid so Jay you gotta go I I do have to go uh uh they we've got a whole bunch of stuff that's printed out that has to get there and um as I say I've got to go change my clothes and get into my J peace put on that bowling shirt with pride and have fun without me uh I know you will hard to do hard to do uh and we'll catch you another time around all right Jay bye bye have fun West Wind before we move on though I just want to Echo um and and Hound home again something that Jay said that you know cortisol has this bad bad rep like down with cortisol down with cortisol um and you know just supporting everything that Jay said that cortisol is extremely important um and the issue is you know too much but you can also have you know not enough so be really really careful about how much we demonize cortisol again with its uh immune function etc etc so let's get that pendulum back in the Middle where it where it belongs Saul this is like an Irish Thanksgiving if you Don jump forward you're not gonna get no turkey so I'm just welcome to the uh the panel thank you appreciate it's more like a mosh pit song Mosh Pit okay well there we go who's jumping exactly no stage diving [Laughter] please push him back any big topics at Saul's conference that he wanted to maybe talk about or yeah Saul oh gosh uh to look up the I mean it's actually a whole bunch of things um there's going to be obviously Jay will talk I'm sure about the Q um and and things like that but we're having a nutritionist come in to talk about things we're having uh people come to talk about uh EEG uh in people with Autism um bringing neural feedback into the school systems uh talk about was it ever in the school systems uh well occasionally I mean probably the yoner project is the well um and uh then someone's going to be talking about sort of practice building issues and our favorite topic CPT codes um joyy in my favorite topic anyway yeah of course um so it's gonna be a bit of a of a mix of things U but there's going to be uh there's just one talk per time so you don't have to choose and uh it's um it's being kind of put out as a not just a conference but also as a retreat it's it's in a retreat center a Quaker Retreat Center are about 15 20 minutes from the Philadelphia Airport and so there'll be some meditations and walks and Quaker meetings if those are things that you're interested in so a lot of that integrated into the talks as well now Saul you're G to be on the show for our Thursday show but could you let everybody know how to learn more about uh your conference yeah absolutely just go over to the Northeast region bio feedback Society website that is nrb.org.np um and this is you know primarily for providers but we we also have a lot of people who are just interested in neuro and bio feedback come as part of it um uh the uh the conference registration does include a membership to the nrbs for the year and so you get uh discounts with our other webinars U we have a couple of member only um things that are going on through the year things um so it's it's well worth it I would say of course I would say that but it is well worth it all the information will be in the show notes and of course when I forget to do it I'm sure Saul will will remind me radar Ashwood says what's going on in the brain of someone with aspd I don't even know what that is can this be treated with neuro feedback any implications for neuro feedback and criminal Rehabilitation or is it too idealistic and UT utopian utop social personality you know um here's here's the deal um back in maybe 2003 2004 um the federal prison systems were showing up at the isnr meetings yeah and they were you know finding out is this something that we can put into the rehab kind of situations and so they first came in to learn how but then they started coming back to the meetings and several years later um they didn't come to the meeting and somebody reached out to them and found out why and one of the examples they told us they apparently had instituted a neura feedback program as part of one of the women's prisons in Arizona and the difficulty they ended up having and they had to stop the program was because the women who were receiving the neuro feedback were becoming so compliant and well behaved that they were no longer safe in the general population and they had no place else GE graphy wise to put these women so they were getting too well rehabbed I guess because their sentences weren't finished and they didn't feel safe putting them back in the general population so in other words yes it works it's not utopian at all but it has to be funded appropriately so that then you can move people into their new stages of capacity there was some old work by Doug Quirk right in Canadian prisons he did a whole bunch of studies showing that with a single course of nerick the one-year uh recidivism rate for reoffending and reincarceration was flipped from 75% down to 25% at the onee rate with just a course of neur feedback and these were violent offenders these were not like lowkey yeah I think he had a large number too it was a very large study but I've had trouble finding it because it was like done in like the late 50s early 60s I think yeah but I've heard many many Elders in our field talk about Doug quirk's work so I feel like I've yeah indirectly absorbed it that way but that was very pretty prison focused he did some other work too uh alcohol but um that might fit into the antisocial personality stuff uh radar for you yeah unfortunately I don't remember the name maybe s you might remember or um but it it goes back because I remember this coming up at a it was a winter brain meeting way way way back when um but essentially they they found it was a study of uh inmates on death row and they un universally found that they had what we now refer to as a hot singulate so essentially the the high beta beta uh was present in every single individual um and that kind of feeds into the rigidity um and you know sometimes the the Revenge principle you know that can lead to to murder um or taking someone's life um anyways of course if you soften that cognitive rigidity and that insistent on being right or venge or or or whatnot tons and tons of things can be done does anybody remember who did that work you know what I'm talking about yeah yeah yeah yeah I don't remember who did it yeah so Defiance disorder in kids all of that little Collective you know the certain percentage grow out of or don't grow out of that's how we quote unquote diagnose them I'm not getting into that but but any child who shows this rigidity lack of remorse um my way or the highway being right being bullying other children go after that that that hot singulate and you can do Miracles but also you know going up through the brain uh the the age span I think it's just beyond tragic uh that individuals um you know lead of lives of Crime and Punishment um based on a a signature or or a phenotype that can be corrected okay and if you can correct it you can you know I talk about correction and Direction all the time if you can just soften that um you're not changing personality you're changing trajectory of a life not just one life many lives Anthony can you help me with radar or radar I so does it increase someone's ability to feel empathy if they are impaired or maybe they're just improving impulse control he piece that together Anthony um I mean his question makes sense is he's asking if you uh address the singulate uh is it more that they're just able to retain their impulses um restrain rather or is it that they somehow gain more empathy you know I know that the um the ventromedial PFC is involved in empathy and I was Googling a study for him and I think that the singulate may be involved there but I'll let others address which they think it ised Alpha Theta so I mean it was Alpha Theta created this effect so I think that's our answer for at least parti part of its empathy and emotional connection I would assume yeah we want to be a bit cautious about that I mean I'm just looking at what um RAR has uh hope I'm pronouncing your your name correctly but what better has on the screen uh asking so is a hot singulate genetic because I have that and my sister is insanely rigid so thank you thank you for that question yeah no but I mean one of the things you have to be really careful about and I use this example all the time it's just you know it's a it's an example that's used in statistics or or or generalization 101 all cats have four legs but it doesn't mean all animals with four legs are cats okay so my example for a hot singulate is a two-sided coin okay so the one side of the coin it can be extremely positive in terms of Drive you'll find most elite athletes extremely successful entrepreneurs Etc have this signature there's you know there's a real positive side to as well and of course we know about the negative the other example I use all the time with my clients is a pitbull okay you've got a pitbull in your head there's nothing inherently wrong with the animal it's how and why the animal is trained so if you're a police Pitbull and you will jump over waterfalls and climb up hills and there's nothing you won't do to catch that criminal that's a good Pitbull but if you're a pitbull in a schoolyard okay I don't even have to run run through the whole metaphor that's not a good Pitbull so you know do we need to dampen your Pitbull retrain your pit and again this is where I talk about Direction versus correction people with really hot singlet there's nothing that won't stop them these are the people that you know write books in six months and and you know just do you know do incredible things uh athletes and artist nothing will stop them from their goal it's not necessarily negative but if you're goal is killing somebody we got a problem okay now I mean I'm I'm I'm don't mean to make light of this but we have to be really really careful about what we correct and why we correct it there's also a lot of sorry yep I was just going to support well for people who like movies it's an older one but alpacino and heat um people ask him well why can't your marriages go well and he says I am only as good as what I'm chasing you said that you mentioned a cop he plays a cop and you said they lock on he says if I'm not chasing something I'm I'm dead I'm not alive and so he's not in his marriage and he they even say man you leave wreckage where it's his third marriage or something movie so I guess I just raised that to say you know there's there's go to there's probably tradeoffs in some of this always always always um and and this is you know if we want to get into couples th therapy Etc yeah if you have two people with a hot singulate you know I I I joke I call that the divorce signature unless two people are equally driven non-competitively okay uh they don't compete with each other and whatever they're pursuing does not compete with the marriage okay these are the really high performing couples generally speaking and they understand that hey we get home at 11 o'clock at night that's okay right so it's it's really a matter of how you work it out it's kind of like addiction you know everybody knows alcoholism is a problem okay so is cocaine and and and other things okay but what about workaholism okay many spouses think that's a pretty negative addiction uh add sorry Jen Z is not worried about that that was good okay Gen X is giggling um what percentage of the people have a hot single it yeah well statistically you can answer that just onethird that's a population metric yeah there you goer with with females through the the life cycle uh a postmenopause you probably noticed um you know whether it's your your mother your grandmother your auntie yourself your wife your daughter whatever there's there's a certain switch that starts to click with females where they oh I want to swear can I swear here they don't give a o anymore right they like they're just kind of going after it and I oh no I'm demonetized no but but but I I think um you know there might be something there to you know just uh being tired of always being humble or Towing the line um you know another part of it is I think uh the the um hor I don't know about the hormonal influence obviously there is something there U but you will find the high beta beta ratio goes up with age in women and you will find powerhouses in in in more mature females just for that reason uh Joy you want to jump in there as the other female on the panel yeah um I want to get loosened up a little bit here because I am gonna it's like we're worried about the hot s I'm sorry I get a little worked up when we talk about parts of the brain and what they do and we limit it to that okay he says his sister is incredibly rigid okay if she's in my office I have at least 10 questions to ask about that rigidity else makes people rigid sense reintegration difficulties they get real whacked out they can't go to that restaurant and they can't if you move their shoes you might as well just crawl under the carpet and die so why you cannot just pull up brain areas and say it must be that okay don't do that yeah not even if you have a queue Because unless you take that person and match them to their queue putting that electrod there may or may not work good point Joy I mean we take for granted here that when we ramble on that we we all kind of know the limitations we're talking about Etc so thanks for bringing that up okay gentlemen are silent oh no well you know after a certain point we just go down the hill so there's no drive the drive drive goes all right that is true Anthony what's driving traffic to your Tech Channel and Dr Hill what's going on who you s sending all those remote packages to does he want to go first sure um yeah we have all kinds of people getting remote kits these days uh we're doing a lot of work with the aiming clinics too so they're sending us a lot of clients uh because they do of course spec scanning but then they don't have necessarily brain Focus interventions that are physiological it's more brain coaching and diet lifestyle medication Etc so like functional medicine stuff so we work with the aing clinics a lot these days and see some of their clients and we've got uh bunch of offices in the US and overseas but most of our clients never see our offices and so today this morning I was troubleshooting an amp you know USB cable for somebody in Dubai and then my next call was somebody in Portugal my next call was somebody you know in uh Oman so you know it's if you've got a brain and you have equipment you can train it is our our perspective people ask me when I'm doing pre-sales you know do you get better effects you is it better to do it in the office and I say no you get better effects when you do it from home because people train more they pay more attention and their captive audiences for getting reports they have a private slack channel so like hey haven't seen a sleep survey in two days what's up and you know we get a much more round trip real-time communication so you those you who do know our feedback who who are on the on the panel or listening I bet you would agree the biggest challenge to doing neur feedback is having people tell us how it feels afterwards at least for me that's the biggest point of failure is that feedback from the client we're insistent upon it like every you know we we guarantee that uh you know we we check in and we write everything down yeah so yeah I mean I mean anybody in this business needs to uh control the uh the subjective as well yeah but do Dr Hill 80% of the stuff that you do is remote yeah at least everybody else the other 20% have and you can put your fingers on them I mean you are the one that's answering the trouble tickets like what I have a team I mean I have 15 people in Peak brain or so beyond me when when they're sending the box out I mean what is the first thing that comes up when somebody's doing a remote they didn't plug it into the wall like what's the you know I've done a lot of work on high-tech uh jobs and my uh very first high-tech boss his his words of wisdom have always resonated nine times out of 10 the ansers on the screen the 10th time it's not plugged in like like yes that's a lot of it and I use eager which can be a little finicky if you mis if you take your amp and unplug it replug it you just crash the software so there's a bunch of GES that we we got used to providing support but you know we we've got really good documentation when someone needs a new location we have a whole cheat sheet and way to find locations in the head um we teach people over a couple of weeks on how to set up basic software how to run signals how to log what they're doing and then we have a you know realtime uh shared desktop we can jump on and troubleshoot if they hit trouble and so people go from doing handheld guided work into doing taking photographs their head and screens for checking their new setups to training deeply I mean I have clients who are one of the things I've discovered about home training and self trining is because I'm not a clinician because I'm a scientist teaching about your brain and giving you agency instead of fixing a particular problem people tend to train with me for a lot longer too they self- select training programs that are very very long sometimes so I have clients up in the 7 800 session counts these days sometimes uh who who who are exceptionally good nura feedback trainers themselves and my work with them is like H that's a good protocol twice more good job because they know how to do it all they've been doing it for years now so but training a tech to do this yeah that's hard enough it is um I have amazing um qu worked for somebody else so you I have amazing brain coaches I have a handful of people who've been working with me for many of them 10 years or more um Peak brain's just over nine years old but my previous company Alternatives was around for two and a half years three and a half years so a lot of these people have been with me for over a decade and you know I was their professor in gerontology and Neuroscience courses at UCLA and then I was their intern manager and then I was their employer so a lot of these folks that are now in their like mid-30s I've seen you know since when they were we neuroscientists and now they're uh very skilled like my my coaches are as skilled as most uh highlevel neurotherapist are in our field because of how close to data we always work so you know and and we're teaching we're always teaching clients about their own brains that creates a very different relationship with EEG you know I I not any of you guys I'm sure but we know people in our field who don't know what they're doing and they run recipe books or they run software yeah yeah that that's the danger that's the danger and they run especially if you believe your software is magical you know because then when it doesn't work you don't know what to do if it does work great like automatic artifact not just that but automatic protocol selection yeah for instance there's a lot of systems out there that say they don't use protocols but they do and there systems out there that has a limited set of protocols off of uh complaint lists both of those systems don't work that well if you're weird then weird things happen yeah and it's dangerous I mean one of the things you'll find in this panel you know I mean it we don't have to argue about anything you know the way I and and my clinic works is very very different I mean we're known for being rather insistent that people come into the clinic we are so personalized it isn't funny and the appeal of our Clinic is exactly uh the opposite in that we we do extremely um personalized I would say intensive um and people our clients are extremely short term um they both work um and I'm going to toot my horn and I'm going to toot Andrew's horn it's it's because you know we've really really developed these methods and I would say based on the client profile you you find the person that works well with you um you know and and you know it's kind of like do you want to go to the gym every single week to keep yourself in shape until 85 or do you want to you know get get a personal trainer um to get you in and and have a you know a 20we program right um both work depending on um on what your goals are but I think every single person here and probably almost every person who gets invited on this panel really really really knows their stuff so that's why there's no argument in terms of methods um but anybody who has not put the leg work in and the education in and the training and who doesn't know how to read the raw signal I mean the the list is long none of what we're saying qualifies so I have guys triona had a question on that note um outside of sleep what are your usual questions for checking in after training and do you ask for feedback 24 48 hours later Etc hey thanks for showing up nice to see you Dr Hill I I ask for reports every day twice a day regardless of if you're training or not I just like to people to log stuff now compliance is iffy and I have systems to keep that in place but um I'm building new software you guys can use if you want for tracking reporting at some point this year but um I ask question I ask for feedback routinely but I don't assume it's from the neura feedback I want to know how your States and traits and goals are shifting day-to-day regardless of if it's Nur feedback or not sometimes it might be and you can tell oh that beta wave you know was too fast apparently if you were wired and cleaned your whole house last night whoops but usually it's more like just gradual watching the trend of the arc across time and then trying to get enough of a sampling right this is Nyquist theorem you got to sample their surveys twice as often as they have experiences change to figure out what's happening so perfect perfect perfect perfect case in point I ask for them once a week okay because I don't I want to see you also see them in person every exactly so entirely different methods same kind of results in terms of you know you you don't want to deal with that you know Spike you want to see if that Spike means something etc etc so yeah twice a day versus once a week big big big difference and they both I think one of the greatest things now I'm a podcast guy in another life I had a clinic in the Midwest and I made more money doing podcasts which is NOT saying a lot one of the greatest things I did one of the greatest things I figured out was a drip campaign where uh I would survey everybody when they got done with a tech I would say hey what you know rate your experience was it better or worse whatever and then over time I thought that was the greatest thing like one hour they didn't always fill it out but an hour after you know when they get home they would fill out hey how do you feel how was the experience with the person that performed you know what could we do better I think that is something that everybody's gotta whether it's Constant Contact Survey Monkey or whatever I think that's a great thing everybody should learn my my Approach is a little bit different um this uh they ask what questions you ask other than sleep that's determined during my assessment yeah so when we sit down one of my last questions is what are you going to notice so that you'll think the ner feedback is doing something what would change what would be something that you would say oh that's different yeah and I asked them specifically we need to talk every time you come in and I see people three times a week yeah um we need to talk every single time you come in and I'm trying to get I would like this to be a growing list at first you may not understand everything I'm asking but give me some ideas of if something changed what would you consider different and that's my starting point right um the list does grow because people become aware and more more self-aware to say oh and you know what else changed what I realized that I'm just not ruminating like I was yeah yeah yeah yeah like that know so um it can be highly individual also when I check in with them yes I absolutely check in with them three times a week but if they're brand new and they're a little iffy yeah I'm GNA contact them some way shape or form within those first 24 hours how you doing or I tell them make sure you check in one hour two three hours I give them some idea when it's time for you to think about making evaluation about today's session that's when people knew because they don't they really know so we give them the guidance and all that I also you guys do I mean I I I have a much more accessible team than therapists can have or or psychologists can have my clients every one of them has a private slack Channel That's wide open staffed 12 hours a day by a team of coaches who are asking answering real questions touching Bas bugging them so clients are like constantly communicated with yeah and therapists can't do that that's a very inappropriate in some ways you want to have a little bit of boundary and we kind of don't we're kind of like running around the the virtual gym going Yay good for you it's like the soul cycle model but it's we're trying to be like in their face a little bit with constant you know cheering and encouragement and support and hey what did you mean by this statement you said in that sleep survey last night and we get a little intrusive because we're always there in their pocket asking questions so yeah it's a coaching model versus you know if you're if you're a psychologist um you're you're actually uh working towards your extraction I mean it's just part of the nature of the discipline that if you're in there too long it means you're not doing your job well so they're entirely different uh intervention models and we have to recognize that but I want to loop back to what Joy said like same thing we we have extensive questionnaires on intake uh and then I ask people okay what's your top three uh and then we match that up with what we see in the EEG um and you know we we over time they can switch but I find if I work with more than three things at a time things get really confusing and convoluted and it also forces a client to really choose what's important to them and we can really track and see what's changing obviously with the EEG but also their subjective experience so I would say the questions are based on the uh the client's goals and and if when how fast how slow they're they're moving and when objectives have been met is it over or do we slide on to what was number four now becomes number one or number two um but I guess I want to repeat that all of us have um the we're not talking about competitive models we're talking about different models uh that work possibly for different client profiles but also Under The Umbrellas of um our profess professions our registrations our licenses Etc so everybody has to keep that in mind guys hey real quick speaking of um top issues uh radar has another quote or a question rather is the hot singulate issue connected to sexual paraphilias I've heard people say OCD is connected to this type of hypersexuality and so would it be a connected to a singular issue yes but not directly the the connectivity there is through the anterior part of the temporal lobe so yes you have the singulate involved in those connections that pass by the insula but you're talking about you see this in um in classic uh neuros injury studies the um the clu buy syndromes that's a that's an example of a very narrow hypersexuality turned all the way up when you lose the anterior tips of the um temperal lobe and you have disinhibited sexuality with often an oral focus and often like there's other complicated behaviors around it it's that tissue just behind there that seems to be tied into the singlets and the posterior uh the tpj the environmentally focused right temporal parietal so yes the singulate might be where you see it on a brain map but it's not coming from the singulate probably it's coming from Tempo parietal areas in terms of a driver is my take on it I'm I'm biased though very interesting that's my take on it having seen a lot of it actually so yeah yeah awes Ben how you been Buddy does anyone here ever do feedback with more than two channels yes but yeah exactly right yeah sure yes he wants to take the butt no there there definitely some circumstances where uh it it can be recommended and definitely some circumstances where it it's not recommended I think any one of us could have really long drawn out answers here but um I'm I'm reticent to give anything specific because that really is going to depend 100% on hold on Dr Marine because always check with your primary care phys this show is just for entertainment informational purposes only [Laughter] continue okay just what I was saying it's so client dependent um I find when I Target with one or two channels I I I move faster um but there's definitely a time and a place to to really really try and shift the whole brain um but uh I'd say a lot of um I'm trying to be diplomatic here but maybe I shouldn't bother I I would say a lot of folks that are using systems the push button systems the more channels they engage the better and it's just playing with spaghetti wiggle and jiggle and no that is not what we're talking about I would say when anyone on this panel and and our our true cohorts do that we have an extremely specific objective in doing so yeah more channels is not more EG training FYI it's just more math before you the EG train you're still training a a signal at the scalp you're not training deep in the brain people think that you're training cortically or subcortically with Loretta or zcore no you're still training the scalp signal you've solved for so and in keeping with um trying to keep the neuron noodle safety stuff I'm going to verbally ask that we not talk about protocols here I see in these questions here there's trading protocol advice which is can we say that's really off limits you just I don't know who these people are I don't know what their level of experience is and I don't really want to make suggestions that might look like we're condoning any kind of M I'm sorry hold on Joy do you have a different disclaimer than I do no but I felt like pet fell under your like hey uhuh we're you know yeah anytime feels uncomfortable you put your own disclaimer out there we're out here we're podcasting okay we're not touching your scalp check with your primary care physician first right this is for entertainment and informational purposes only yeah we're clinicians and scientists but probably not your clinicians yeah there we go beautifully put beautifully put that's why de Hill and I know that the people answering and asking questions here aren't the each other's clinicians which that's what I'm most disturbed by is they're sharing stuff amongst themselves online here what can't the internet doing that there is important to point out there's a gap between channels one through four and 19 there's a hole there in the field right so what what you've asked those people whoever was radar I think asked or Ben about um Channel density those of us using one through four channels have a philosophical a scientific and a training approach that's kind of different than those people that are invested into full head training um even if you start getting into four channels which I as far as I know the only like welldeveloped four Channel training approach is Rob coin's multivariant coherence I've used that works fine I don't I'm sorry zcore training is four channels it can be yeah but I mean why would you do four Channel zcore training without doing a Loretta now you're just now you're just like cutting off cheating except people do it doesn't make sense though because because the zcore is not at a location right no right that's no no but the point is there are ways you can do good Nur feedback with single channels or with a full head but you can also be completely wrong and do the wrong thing with one channel or 19 and the number of channels does not make the neuro feedback can I thr in here you are more likely to see that something isn't working or that you're doing something wrong with one channel than with 19 uh and that's also why I I dare to say uh that it can be safer now notice all my conditionals in there okay but if for whatever reason um you know you you set some parameter wrong or the wrong direction you are going to catch it immediately unless you're an idiot oh God I'm getting bad here um but you know we we have to kind of throw it out you know um maybe I should retract you know some of what I said I don't want anybody working in this unless they really know what they're doing but too many people um don't really know what the equipment is doing and I would say if you don't know what the equipment is doing you don't know what you're doing and I see more of that with more channels I don't see as much of that when we're working with fewer channels because when you work with fewer channels you need to know what you're doing um you need some precision and the safety net there is you can also see very clearly when something isn't isn't going right I wish I knew Dr Marie like five years ago when Steve Sten was around when I bought my two 19 Channel Nexus $20,000 amplifiers Dr Hill the problem that we run into is it's hard to differentiate the audience that comes in because you have end users you have clinicians and in between like how do you do it you you've been around longer than I have because who knows right now we have an audience is more like end users and you know technicians but you got moms and pooms moms and dads that are coming on they're trying to figure out oh my kid is this and that how do you deal with the three different audiences in the one uh podcast that you do well I mean I do my you know I have my live stream I have a my own branded podcast and I do a lot of guest podcasts you know I have hundreds out there at this point and what I find is I I'm never selling Nur feedback or talking about a particular technique I'm always just dropping back to explaining some Neuroscience that's the way that I cell as I evangelize which ends up being breaking down topics that are complicated into simple ideas about the brain again and again and again so this is how I do neuro feedback too I don't uh a hue to the DSM i instead look at brain resources and drop below the level of diagnostic buckets if I can I'm not a clinician so I don't want to be in a diagnostic you know confirmational role one of my jokes is doctors are great but they have to be right go to doctors for answers come to scientists for questions you know will like help you figure things out help you test ideas and that's why you want a science practitioner can I just interrupt because and and if you want to pick this up in a moment there's some stuff coming on the screen that is is poking okay um level of tension Rising yeah no practitioners make mistakes and regular makeup brains good practitioners don't what are you what are you calling a practitioner okay so no go to qualified people and you won't have mistakes and you won't mess up brains needs to be regulated yeah well that's mov slowly is importantly and a true scientist going you know what Andrew was saying a science practitioner um isn't experimenting okay they are using acquired knowledge to inform uh what they're what they're doing um you know we have to be really careful about going to straight here so Andrew kindly redirect if you feel uh that I'm going um that I'm miswording things but you know many uh doctors work within certain regulations okay um and you know there's this beautiful middle spot of experimental uh practice um but it's not an experiment uh P per se uh you're not experimenting with people's brains a true science practitioner knows exactly what they're doing why they're why they're doing it they explain the risks and they explain the benefits okay we're not playing with brains here we but any chance of messing up a brain we do not do it um and again Andrew and joy please please jump in I didn't do happen that's the thing me radar is very valid and and joy and I've seen people all over you know Reddit complaining about abreactions and you know with a handful of sessions getting stuck in that mode for for months it does happen generally that's my point that that's the question is like Andrew that doesn't happen to your people does it no it doesn't happen to my people my 10,000 or so people I've seen it one or two times literally once or twice in 10,000 people in over 30 years yeah I mean in 25 years I've seen it I've seen significant side effects like not even one or two times it's really really really rare um but I have other other you know people that come to me every month I get providers sorry clients coming in who have profound anxiety who have dpdr who've got something going on because of they feel it's because of Nur feedback now I'm also a little bit part of my trick in Nur feedback is never to make conclusions right you know your mind's LED you astray when you reach a conclusion very Buddhist perspective and with the brain we kind of have to do some of that so when somebody comes in suffering about something that happened to them my perspective is really believing what they're saying in terms of their experience but holding my conclusions at Bay in terms of why or what happened because people have lots of ideas about their brain and I did this thing with this person I feel crappy afterwards some people have lots of suffering and disregulation and you can have that tripped by you know a scowl from a bad provider not necessarily the neuro feedback for a bad provider so yeah yeah I really just try to meet people where they are and if they're suffering with what they feel is neuro feedback uh uh created side effects AB reactions I believe that's true if they do but I'm not concerned about it because I just want to back them out of that phenomena as quickly as possible you know so I feel that the potential for side effects is also sort of proof that what we do works very well because it's when applied without care can push people in the wrong direction but just to harp on the side effect thing for a second side effects rarely happen with one or two sessions certainly not with you again Mari what you were saying about single channel two channel it's a little more discreet moves a little slower you have time to catch side effects too you put a full head on somebody and train aggressively a whole bunch 75 parameters at once you might create side effects but if you're doing traditional neur feedback you got to work at creating a side effect that's more than transient in my experience that's but Andrew I just want to step in in order to have a side effect there has to be an effect well a side effect is an effect right I mean well what I'm saying is some people say neuro feedback doesn't do anything right yeah you never believe it works so well the day you do the wrong right and the second thing I want to throw in there okay Santiago Brown says he's an over glorified technician I'm an over glorified video editor the one thing that I've heard is uh with neuro feedback it is an experiment because you are moving things around it's not experimental it's iterative what's the difference well experimental is testing an idea and trying to come up with data we're not trying to get to an answer we're trying to iterate towards resources changing create goal congruent movement in people's experience and resources you have to do you have to change gears by doing that you can't stick with the same workout yes you're G to mix it up yes you're G to experiment by trying different things but it's not an experiment it's not experimental it's iterative it's it's Progressive it's you know you don't understand somebody from their brain map on day one as much as they might think you do I always tell people as much as this seems like I can spot all these cold things about you I'm just getting a sense of big resources you're still in charge as we go of letting us know how you notice things Anthony I'm talking too much can you take care of Radar's last question we'll let everybody no I'm gonna do that boy I'm sorry I'm sorry but radar has sort of revealed some stuff um he doesn't know much about neuro feedback SMR is not really well tolerated it is not because first of all if you say SMR you have to mean 12 to 15 times a second otherwise tell me what numbers you're using SMR sensory motor Rhythm as coined by Barry Sturman is 12 to 15 times a second and I can tell you after my assessment I know perfectly well if I can just blow you up out of the water and send you home as miserable as you've ever been in your life if I ask your brain to produce more 12 to 15 it is not generally well tolerated you have got to know the head you're introducing that information to so that blows I find it very well tolerated sorry Andrew I I can't tolerate now I don't I don't just pick 12 Herz and slow and throw it on the head either like I think about is there anxiety Aging in infirmity Etc and I tune the frequency I was trained in the arousal model back in the east coast uh Andrew that's but you know you have to tune it but I I rarely get side effects from SMR training and when I do get side effects they're useful I use them I I try I try to learn from them I try 12 Hertz and someone says wow I felt kind of wired and then I subrate oh okay you're using it correctly you're you're evaluating that head but I'm not getting side effects with SMR generally no no but but well I'll tell you what I don't consider that a side effect I consider mild action after a session I guess I mean if you I think you two are much closer than you think you are you know Joy you're just talking about caution and Andrew you're talking about successes right so I'll tell you what anybody that used yeah because obviously what you're saying is that you use it cautiously and then you're not going to get generally bad results at all you're evaluating every head I mean the other thing that I think everybody on this CH knows is you take a baseline on your SMR uh and you compare your SMR to your thet Theta you get a nice little ratio and you make sure you're doing it um you know at C3 or C4 generally speaking not confusing it with CZ so there there's all this stuff that we're not putting on the table that we are just making assumptions on um and as I said I think joy and Andrew you're you're you're saying um the same thing Joy is just putting out a huge huge huge huge caution flag here um and we're also presuming that when somebody says they did SMR training we're presuming that it's at the right location that they can differentiate between low beta and SMR that they're actually over the motor strip that they actually have a comparative and amplitude to competitive waves need I go on okay we're at time what I'd like to do is the number one rule and entertainment is always leave the crowd wanting more so we will have a show tomorrow with Saul you going to join us tomorrow I'll be there okay we'll be there the panel has the link if somebody wants to show up it's just like an early you know it's like having lunch come on in whoever you know comes in what I like to do is to close out this panel discussion starting with Saul tell us your your details and we'll move around the joy then Dr Marie Anthony and Dr Hill how can everybody find out more about you starting with you Saul sure so I'm uh in the Boston area so I'm an East Co East coaster uh and you can find out more about my practice at Advanced behavioral doare Joy I want to hear more about you not really but where where could everybody else could find out more about you I'm near Los Angeles in Burbank um been here since 2003 prior to that I had practice in Chicago starting in 1993 um I am a general practitioner I I started this way back when before we all learned how to specialize so basically if you walked in my door and it seemed nerve feedback was appropriate I learned how to work on you so my experience has been in a very generalized sense um I I guess the best description that somebody told me is that I have a poque practice this is where Andrew and I have a very different approach to this and we're both happy with what we got I run every session in my office so that limits how many I can see every week and what I can do but um you know makes me happy I like interacting with the people I like watching their changes so that's how I do business so look up Joy Lun l n on Google then bam you got attitude do Dr Marie swingle earned it's earned Pete it's earned I I hear you girl I hear you girl Dr Marie swingle we'll see you tomorrow morning but your calling card is yeah you and find out more about me and the swingle clinic at swingle clinic.com u i yeah we we opened the clinic 25 27 years ago we were one of the first Clinics of one of the first three clinics in all of Canada um I don't know about the us but uh yeah we we were in from the um from the get-go um and before I was working in in neuro I was I was an educator um so come by all of this rather honestly Second Generation Um doing this um yeah I think I'm pretty broads scoped you are quite the broad scop Anthony Ramos he everybody yeah um just find me on Facebook I'm I'm learning with all of you as much as I can and also trying to report what I'm learning so uh on man your Facebook group you got thousands in that room yeah you know Science and Technology discoveries um some of the other neuro feedback groups I'll post in there's some very good groups at least that you I mean you can contact you know Jay is in some of those groups so there are uh qualified people there you have to take a grain of salt though uh as we've learned uh really like this like this show Dr Andrew Hill 80% remote bus bus that's right so I own Peak brain institute.com you can check us out there but we have physical offices in New York City St Louis La Orange County London Stockholm and a lot of our clients never see our offices so we can send you brain mapping equipment we do remote brain mapping remote traditional neuro feedback uh and come find us and I do of course you know podcasts and live streams myself all over the place if you want to hear me talk you you certainly can so you got the voice for it anybody ever send you back an empty box yeah yep I L one qeg amp a year um about half of those are because FedEx um Los just loses it about half the time it shows up as an empty package we lose one qeeg amplifier a year yep so there's there $6,000 down the toilet hey panel crowd everybody we're trying to figure this thing out feedback always works life is about feedback just like n feedback any ideas please send them in everybody every Wednesday 6: PM central time you feel like you missed out send me an email Pete neon.pdf