Exploring Neurofeedback Potential - Andrew Hill / Awesome Health Podcast

[Music] welcome to the bio Optimizer awesome Health podcast and now here's your host way T [Music] lightheart what is awesome Health It's actually an acronym that stands for air water exercise Sunshine optimizers mental beliefs and attitudes and education these are the pillars of PE health and my team and I have created a free 12we course that you can use to transform each day you'll get a written and video Lesson delivered to your inbox everything is covered from the foundations of digestion to Advanced alternative therapies few people know about and again it's 100% free just go to buy optimizers decom that's B IO PT m i z rs.com good morning good afternoon and good evening it's wayt lightheart from bioptimizers with another edition of the awesome Health podcast and today we're going to talk about a topic that I love it's called neuro feedback and particularly we're going to get into a couple things like qeg brain mapping and why neuro feedback is gaining popularity and maybe why it would been not within the toolbox of a lot of psychologists or people in the psychological field and how it can be used for a lot of things including improving you know complicated conditions as well as accelerating into Excellence there's a wide range of things that neuro feedback can do and today's guest Dr Andrew Hill who is a cognitive Neuroscience from UCLA is the founder of the peak brain Institute and a leading neuro feedback practitioner and biohack in coach for clients worldwide some he's got some unique Integrations around that at the peak brain Institute Dr Hill provides individualized training programs to help you optimize your brain across goals of stress sleep attention brainfog creativity and athletic performance and he joins us today welcome to the show Andrew oh thanks for having me wait nice to be here so I guess you know it's so interesting um we were chatting a little bit beforehand and my girlfriend is just finished her Masters at uh you know top university and she's moving into a PhD in neuro feedback and a couple comments that she has mentioned she went for certification since she goes around there's like a few old people in the neuro feedback program that had been around since the 7 like like when it like its early areas and but when you go to the you know the traditional or the real well respected universities out there there's not a lot of conversation around neuro feedback and all the benefits it provides so as someone who's been in the industry as long as you I'd like to kind of find out how you got into it why you got into it and how it differs from maybe the psychological world that is common in the educational institute today sure so there's a lot there thanks for uh for setting that up um the the field in our feedback is not that old I mean even EEG is not that old uh we're in 2024 right now and EEG the first human EEG was recorded in the summer of uh 1924 100 years ago this year EEG was the first human and the guy that recorded it didn't believe believe he was looking at so spent you know like five more years before he published and no one believed him and that was 95 years ago and neuro feedback as it's as we use it now this this way of manipulating brain waves was discovered in the mid-60s can you explain to our listener who might not be familiar what an EEG is and was like oh well is this really happening yeah so we still don't really know deeply what it is um a lot of brain stuff is this way where we're in a phenomenological space we're describing stuff and we're sort of saying oh well it acts this way it has these properties but we're less good at saying oh and then it means all these other related phenomena so we're still especially for brain stuff uh a lot of it's invisible I mean a lot of psychiatric psychological stuff it's silent you can't see it you can't see your pain you can't see concussions the same way you can see a broken arm and the brain is also made up of things that you're aware of and things you're not most the brain you're not really aware of and a lot of the brain that you do the Awareness stuff with both the thinky cognitive stuff as well as all the perceptual and emotional and memory a lot of that is driven by the bark or the surface of the brain called the cortex which is this big sheet of tissue that's wrinkled up to cram into the skull and the cortex if you flatten it out has these Columns of tissue running through it and they're six layers and they're very conserved this architecture all throughout the cortex the proportion of each layer changes as you move throughout the brain but has these six layers and within those within that column you can think of this like a like a city um skyscraper an apartment building or something and it's got a lot of communication about 30,000 neurons hanging out in this little block and 100,000 gal cells or support cells this little block and it's dancing in in a rhythm there a block party going on and it's doing one thing one giant Rhythm emerging out of these thousands and thousands of cells now they're doing stuff within but they've agreed This is Our Song for Friday night and they're just rocking out that corner of the of the block and you got you got billions of these things called micr columns or often called mini columns it's confusing but one is electricity one is size um microvolts and I think mini uh nanometers or something I don't know for what the size unit is but these are the computational units these are the CPUs of the cortex most of the brain the surface of the bra is these things and they send out distant connections to far neighborhoods and local connections to close neighborhoods and are influenc and influencing and passing information back like you know New York City in the 50s with closed lines and people calling out the windows and all kinds of you know neighborhood Vibe happening and that's the that's the local Rhythm the local EEG the electrical andram the Rhythm electricity the stable pattern of dancing a pattern of firing of these neurons and EEG or brain waves go from around close to you know zero times per second all the way up to thousands of times per second called Hertz and we think classically of EEG from about like 1 to 40 Hertz although it does exist outside that range and in the low end of that about below two Hertz you've got Delta and Delta is the heartbeat of the brain it keeps things like your heart and lungs moving and your deep sleep happening and memory consolidation during deep sleep your immune system your cell metabolism has a lot of Delta phenomena Delta creates a literal mechanical wave twice per second washing through the brain like an agitation cycle at night to to strip out all the toxins from metabolic byproduct it's really powerful deep life stuff but you don't think in it you liveing it if you're feeling it when you're awake you're feeling deeply tired and foggy because your brain is trying to rest when you're actually awake next one up is Theta Theta is lubrication one of those little modules those those microcolumns will combine to create information machinery and sensory machinery and some of it's fixed and some of it's variable but it'll come together to create a mix of brain wave to tune its own behavior and Theta is a release takes the brakes off lets things happen so you can have lots of theta for a very brief moment six and a half Hertz Theta Theta is 4 to 7 4 to eight Hertz but the top edge of that six and a half is Insight a release of aha that thing I remembered that's six and a half roughly the memory access moment it's involuntary stuff Bubbles and around four to seven broadly you've got a disinhibition so if it's everywhere in the cortex then your brain is squirrel and you can't sit still and you're distractable and we call that ADHD disinhibited cortical sort of States um if you've got it maybe over the front midline of the brain whose job it is to select what the internal environment is focusing on called the anterior singulate the CEO do this think of this do this think of this if the anterior singlet is making Theta it latches onto some random stimuli and starts to get stuck so we start biting our nails or having songs play in our head all day long but if the gas pedal waves the ones we actually use voluntarily like beta waves the the up in the teens if those get stuck in the front midline now we have an intrusive thought pattern and we call that OCD perseveration stuck thoughts so you can start to see what I'm doing I'm I'm looking different architecture of the brain these big gross hubs of information processing decision making we have three major networks the default mode Network executive Network the salience network and these come together and make big structures for creating our experience of the mind and then we have the motor system and the Sleep System and the sensory system all plumbed in and you end up with this picture of all the map of the modules essentially making brain waves and you can look at your brain waves an EEG is a measurement of brain waves we do something called q e or quantitative just means we're measuring it compared to something doing analysis on it usually what you mean is you're doing an age match sample comparison so your brain at rest cap on the head squirt it full of gel sit still for 10 minutes eyes closed and 10 minutes eyes open record what your brain is doing and compare that to a database of thousands of people who are your age and plot you on a bell curve and look at amounts of brain waves distribution of brain waves connectivity p patterns speed patterns of all these different brain waves compared to the average person your age and look at how weird you are where's all the stuff that sticks out where are the the biomarkers where the phenotype patterns that are unique to you now where qeg is a problem and one of the reasons it hasn't taken off broadly is because people are weird good job be weird you cannot diagnose off of a qeg nothing really Rises quite to diagnostic validity these are stable patterns for you but what is a problem for you might be a strength for somebody else or not just not a problem for somebody else so you want to look at the outliers we also do executive function testing alongside it you know go no go style attention testing and that gives you some really valid boundaries on your guesses for some of the broader features then I walk through a brain map a qeg with someone say look here's six things eight things 15 things about your brain that are unusual your alpha waves are doing this it's true your theta waves do doing that that's also true that's kind of cool hey sometimes it means this often it means that what do you think this part of the brain these brain waves this phenomena does that and the person usually says oh my gosh that's me and I care about that oh okay well then great we're now in the ballpark at least and now you have not necessarily diagnostic Precision what you have as a perspective of the system and how it works and you have agency now you can take those phenomena if you got some front midline beta and it's creating intrusive thoughts you know OCD type phenomena stretch it out stick a wire there put some ear Clips on and measure the beta waves moment to moment as the brain makes them that sort of tight tone of that resource and also measure the alpha waves the medium frequency the neutral between the gears tone as you make both these brain waves they're going to change a little bit on their own whenever the alpha happens to go up the beta happens to relax at the same time computer sees that and starts to applaud the brain little auditory and ual massage hey good job brain good job brain brain's like stuff hey stuff's cool I like stuff and it watches and then the alpha collapses a bit again the beta comes back up like it often does and the game slows down or stops and the Brain says I don't I don't like no stuff where's where's my stuff and a couple seconds later the alpha comes back up on its own and the game reacts the brain goes oh oh Alpha's move oh and the Brain notices this the Mind does not I am dis ising those things you can't feel your brain waves so it's mostly involuntary operant conditioning the big trick is we move the gold poost and keep the computer next to the person so we're only applauding change in the proper direction for that workout and after about two or three 20 30 minute workouts you know over a week or two um you start to feel it after the third session fourth session usually your brain goes oh Alpha gives you a giant surge of alpha for a few hours in that tissue and and you're like wow I don't feel stressy and obsessy right now that's really weird huh and then the next day you're like no I was imagining it I might have felt no I was imagining it and then you do another session or feedback and it happens again and you're like well wait a minute wait a minute guys uh this front midline protocol I think it's okay great make a note and you learn to index working your brain out the same way you might figure out in the gym that you need more of an incline press for the old shoulder thing you have versus a you know narrow grip because you got some weak you know s stuff going on you learn to tailor the workout to the person based on how it feels and you iterate towards their goals and then go back and map the brain again and measure the executive function again so we do that every 20 or 25 sessions at Peak uh at Peak brain so about every other month you're you're remapping reassessing and if you didn't do neuro feedback or any other big interventions or have big events happen you're the same brain mapping EEG is the same month after month after month after month and so is executive function largely so when you add something like neuro feedback you you progressively push the brain around and you get these changes you typically get about a standard deviation or a zcore and a bell curve um every other month every 20 25 sessions in things like executive function performance and executive function markers in the brain or anxiety features in the brain and you're really validating it not based on what you're doing in the assessments but based on this day-to-day how is is this resource feeling how is your brain acting for you against the backdrop of all the analysis and testing and perspective and tracking other features so you're really flipping this like treatment idea a little bit on its head instead of becoming this therapeutic container we're you know thrusting agency back upon people by teaching them how their brain works and then helping them move through uh making small changes or big changes sometimes so if I heard what you said in a in a nutshell you're basically saying okay here's what we're going to do we we're going to strap on essentially uh a silicon based extension to your carbon brain that provides a feedback of data points that you aren't aware of necessarily you have like you have maybe a you don't have a REV like a cognitive way of monitoring this but that the new extension in the E the qeg is saying here's what's going on in your brain you're like oh and then you have an integrative unit that starts reframing or rech changing that through um how reward-based systems and neural connect works well like creating tones or sounds or you know things that that that the cells go oh I want to create that neural connection and do that and then the concordance with your physiology means that you're getting this change in what the physiology is producing as a byproduct which are these waves and you can measure and then there's a subjective experience of oh I feel different than I used to before and at the early stages you might not notice it simply because you couldn't notice it in the first place but then the subjective confirmations start to emerge all of a sudden I I was stuck as an executive with these complex problems and then suddenly I have Insight or I used to feel stress under this circumstance family relationship or you know a work situation now that I I don't have that experience anymore and so you're like oh this stuff is really working now and then of course you're taking snapshots essentially through time to document and illustrate how your brain is actually shifting by this it's ex its brainwave products yep so in the objective mapping and reassessing and modeling what's going on every other month and the subjective report day-to-day how's your sleep how's your stress how's your seizure how's your mother-in-law making you mad and as things start to fluctuate day to day they start to shift you're like whoa that was weird I my mother-in-law didn't make me mad I was super chill after that that was weird hey guys I'm actually less mad right now yeah okay try that protocol again it's very much like your personal trainer sting on top of what's happening what your goals are and and trying to do goal congruent support not fixing you not about oh he's got a diagnosis we must fix him more like okay goals around this success uccess looks like this let's iterate let's markco Polo our way towards that sucker and figure out where the phenomena are the person cares about how they describe that is actually pretty important too you know if you can describe some experience you're having the stuff you can work on gets pretty interesting you can do a lot of reliable work on things like creativity access or Flow State you know you have a tough time talking about your emotions with your partner easy you can't move into a generative place of ideas and you know creativity that's really you know that moment when you fall asleep and you solve world hunger have the best story idea or whatever that moment of access you can reliably train yourself to put a door knob onto that mode and step into it for nonlinear sort of harvest to move back into linear mode to go you know do your taxes so what you can do to your brain is pretty wild once you leave this perspective of I got to fix myself here's a thing and the brain mapping starts that even before you do any interventions I sh you how your brain works and say look this thing front midline you have kind of kind of obsessive but it's also kind of a CEO brain you know steel trap mind that get stuck sometimes it suddenly is this thing you can understand a little bit externalize and it's not just a thing happening to you and I think that it for suffering especially for complaints and other stuff that's in the way just understanding it doesn't change the suffering but it makes it a lot harder to be overwhelmed ashamed guilty frustrated and starts that process of agency and thinking about transformation and what can I do and how can I measure and what's going on and I think that is actually the most important part of neuro feedback is the fact that it gets people into that perspective of hey it's your brain what would you like to do with it and maybe let's figure out how it works so it's my little Soap Box there sorry I love it um well I'm a super fan of brain training um and I can Matt I speak about this often when we are at biohacking conferences or in executive teams or just at business conferences or personal uh you know connections we all come back to you don't know how good brain training can be until you've done it and once you've done it you just don't want to stop it because it's transformative it transforms Your Capacity it uh reshapes what you can do what you think you could do with what you can do and it gives you access to a a a way of Shifting our internal representation of our s and what the opportunities and limitations might have been in the past begin to evolve and change and that gives a real zest to life I want to touch on something you sort of danced in there but didn't really get to and it goes back to my earlier part of the question which is this is transformative technology for people um particularly around psychology most of the psychological literature and directions is based on you're broken and we need counseling and we need a pharmaceutical intervention inside of this yeah and I'm not here to disparage that I'm just like okay that's what's common and but it's more common than going in a route where you can just bypass all that stuff and go right into the the the the shifting of the physiology itself and a lot of those things go away without the need for hey how was your childhood and who was abusive to you and who wasn't and how did you frame that and blah blah blah blah blah not that that's not valuable and and can be very helpful in conjunction why is it why is this not so proliferated in the world today relative these than these other interventions yeah I've got about six different answers for that and I think they're all valid and they sound they range from sounding really reasonable and it makes sense to a little crazy and in conspiracy Focus I love it they're all right they're all true I'm just gonna say that I'm you know they're all right um the first thing is let me ask a question why don't we all have amazing cardiovascular health in ABS kind of of how you know as a culture as a society we kind of know how to to develop that like really strong you know cardiovascular fitness that is the number one killer and we kind of don't because it takes work and practice and effort and a bit of guidance and so it's not super easy to change your brain it's faster than medication or almost anything else but it still takes a few months and it takes expensive Tech I mean when I got involved in the field 20 something years ago you needed two computers because one wasn't enough and they had to talk over parallel Cable ONE ran the game one ran the signal processing on the EEG and uh you know the system cost 20 grand and that's a lot for psychologist you know 25 years ago even now you know it's a couple grand for the hardware and software but the hard part's using it you know it's kind of like everyone anyone can buy a kettle bell resistance bands or a nautilus machine but a good coach can get you results with whichever tool set you know based on what you do with it and so with nura feedback there's been a bit of a tool you know dir it's been a nichy field and the tools are hard and expensive and a little buggy and uh that part of it's mostly gone away in the past you know 60 years now again Nyack was discovered in the mid-60s the guy that discovered this flavor the flavor that used mostly in the world he died this year as an ameritus faculty still doing occasional you know guest stuff what was that fellow's name Barry Sturman Dr Barry Sturman in the 60s discovered uh n a feedback on cats cats are really bad instruction followers that sort of instantly demonstrated from the very first uh experiment was one of these like mistaken by you know happen stance experiments um discovered that it reduced seizures dramatically so this actually feeds into the question about why it's not everywhere so 1960s mid-60s sturma was experimenting on cats he's a learning scientist doing basic learning experiments and NASA had some grant money on the floor and said look we need you to test how dangerous methyl hydrazine Rocket Fuel is people are reporting in the you know Apollo program reporting nausea and hallucinations this is how how dangerous so a safety test an ld50 test which is basically we used do a lot more destructive animal research and we wouldn't do this today but it's essentially figuring out how dangerous chemicals are by poisoning animals so sterman created plexiglass cages that were airtight put a beaker rocket fuel in it and a cat in the cage closed the door started a timer and track symptoms and he did 32 cats like this and of them 24 of the cats had a perfect dose dependent curve with regards to time increase time and increase symptoms and 5 minutes in they're drooling and 10 minutes in they're stumbling and 50 minutes in uh they're making noise and 40 minutes in they're all having seizures every single one of these 24 cats are having seizures and there was you know other worse symptoms coma and death as part of it for these cats but eight of the cats didn't have these instability events and they were like two and a half hours in before they started to show any instability events st's like wait a minute how about I discovered super cats is there a special cat Gene you know what's going on here and turns out no he had used these other cats in a previous experiment months before six months before to see if he could condition brain waves so he stuck a eye dropper in their cheek and taped it in and squirted some chicken broth in whenever they made a certain brain wave in larger amounts the cats already make tons of if you've seen a cat in a window sill liquid body and laser-like focus that combination of motoric inhibited and attentionally activated that's called sensory motor tone it's a way of sitting very very still and being very very focused and humans make this thing most mammals sensory motor Rhythm SMR it's made on the strip of tissue that runs ear to ear the sensory motor strip and it's kind of like a low beta wave that acts like an alpha it's a quiescent sort of stilling frequency Well turns out it makes brain seizure resistant it's the thing we used to pump the brakes on destabilizing into seizure sternman's lab manager was epileptic and uncontrolled on many medications having tens of seizures a week so they made her an auditory feedback device in SMR trained her brain over a few months and she went off all meds and became seizure free for a year amazing that's wild you know this was the start of the field and Sturman did this in 1967 or something and he published an early draft of this seizure impact on the cats to the journal epilepsia and the moment his draft hit his grant funding was pulled by NIH back then it was called something m but it was you know his oddly for no reason his grant funding was was pulled I do know um this is as a sidebar I interviewed a few uh neuro feedback experts that have been around for a while um one of them was runs a clinic in Sedona bi Dr Hart and he he had a his first his first experiment I think was in Joe Camino's lab and I think Stanford or something alha yeah and he had an alpha wave and he was like oh my God he had this aha moment and he was like that was it but he also said that there was a period where it seemed that there was a government influence that this this shut down this entire field that yeah I don't know if it's government as much as insurance companies because that was the big thing happening in drug companies I think it was insurance companies and drug companies because sternman's money was pulled for some reason that was never clear and he was doing some epil research and it was pulled and this you know he sterman did a metadata study toward the end of his career I think it was in 2012 he published uh a study looking at all the seizure literature since the field of nerfy back had started and found that across studies the average reduction is 50% and 5% of people get complete control of seizures and I'll tell you I've never seen a reduction anywhere as poor as 50% it's always dramatic reduction almost always dramatic reduction in seizure so that caught someone's attention there was some blowback I think but you know the real big thing and I'm sure what Dr Hart was talking about is um Chad child in uh add meetings that were there in the 70s and 80s really popular two full-time doctors were paid to go to Chad meetings two salaries around you know for many years just to say nura feedback didn't work W nura feedback eliminates executive function difficulties in almost everyone so it was a drug company you know threat Essen I think that's what happened with with the epilepsy pre-print as well so there a little bit of you know that's the conspiracy side to pull back a tiny bit there are some legit reasons why it's not the same considered the same as a medication now I did my grad work at UCLA a lot of what I did was looking at um the mechanisms of neuro feedback how the brain knows it's happening how do we know it's happening how is it happening because that was not a well- understood phenomena 20 years ago I was in the field you had three or four big voices yelling at each other on news group and use Nets and before the massive current Internet and really arguing with massive vitriol about their way being the best way and this is the only way to do it and yet all of these schools of thought were getting amazing results better than medication approaches usually but they weren't reconcilable schools of thought about how this stuff works they're really in conflict and so I saw this as a blind men and elephant situation yep describing phenomena not really understanding them and that was uh you know know around 2000 or something so I ended up going back to grad school to really start to answer the question what's happening you know is there a way that we can do it right or do it better how do we know what's happening what's happening and so a lot of what I did was a placebo control double blind study of neuro feedback where I compared sites and frequencies across people and I did one of the very first Placebo control double blind studies of Nur feedback ever wow the first one I mean I think I did the second one I found another paper um someone else I think may have done some research around the same time as I published first but you know the reason is it's really hard to Blind EEG you pull a wire off the head or cough or move and the screen goes crazy y so it's hard to derive contingent variables contingent measurements off of that real stream information and not know there's fake stuff going on or you know and the person was sitting there if they move the Game Stops briefly so they know it's live so um I worked with one of the biggest uh software vendors in the field to develop a placebo controlled study module where you take samples of EG similar to the person but not theirs you randomize them you scale them you stitch them together you blend them with the person's EEG to derive all of the visual so you can look at EG and see them cough and blink and Glen their jaw but all the training variables the amount of alpha moment to moment Etc have no contingency they're derived off of completely non-contingent random information off of dis essentially and then I did that looking at sides of the brain and different frequencies versus sham and you can look at the brain reacting when you do real neur feedback in the frequency range that you're rewarding and not reacting when you're rewarding random nonsense that's not contingent so essentially what you're creating here is an extra feedback loop so we strapped on the Silicon brain to give feedback on the carbon brain and then the data points you are using back to your carbon brain to sift out the noise in the system through pattern Rec that's what I did to understand how it work works yeah so once again you're using that and then then from that point an exposure to more and more data the pattern recognition capability of the carbon brain is now saying oh we know ah that's a sneeze that's a cough that's a movement that's irrelevant data we can take we can take this generalized thing that is not as high resolution as we'd like because of these nuances but we can get a general point of Direction and then from there create programs that we know we're getting you know developmental progress in that yeah we can't eliminate all the friction points on it but we can say hey all of a sudden you don't have OCD brain we brought this down in terms of making clinical impact that's exactly how you do it you you you know what is awesome Health It's actually an acronym that stands for air water exercise Sunshine optimizers mental beliefs and attitudes and education these are the pillars of peak health and my team and I have created a free 12-week course that you can use to transform each day you'll get a written and video Lesson delivered to your inbox everything is covered from the foundations of digestion to Advanced alternative therapies few people know about and again it's 100% free just go to bioptimizers dcom that's B IO PT i m i z rs.com and it's not really a thing you've touched on a couple times but I want to just say out loud and kind of frame it is that we're not actually doing anything special with regards to learning yes this the this's this extra silicon Loop you strapped on of measurement and then feedback but then the natural learning takes over this is just using natural associative learning this is no different than a little baby flopping around and suddenly doing a baby push-up and going whoa I can see 14t all of this information is cool and then eight minutes later when you want more information you reach for it and the Brain remembers left bicep right bicep extension the mind doesn't the brain remembers the unique the unique confirmation of neurons find that produced the information you want it that's what neura feedback is but we only provide the information for associations that are made in a certain direction so it's a bit of an invol untary shaping then the Mind later on that day or the next day gets to go huh hey wait let me reflect on that and tell you if I like it if you do great do more of it if you don't it wears off initially anyways it's transient it's an exercise so you get this opportunity to go is this protocol is this stretch of my brain is this area related to my goal let's see put your thumb on it move the brain with up and down a little bit how'd that feel and it really takes you out of an discreet have the answer medical perspective into an exploratory iterative experiential perspective so just to go back to my other non-crazy ideas about why this stuff is uh you know it's hard to do and complicated it's been a little expensive although the prices are coming down and now you can do nerfy back for a few grand you know and SP it instead of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars um the uh research stuff you know it's been complicated to do research until very very recently there's been push back and it's always remain fringey and then here's the biggest problem of all you do different things for every person right how do you test something that's individualized this much I'm not sure people have ever done a really good study on Placebo controlled personal training of the body you know you would do different things for every person based on their goals and how they progress and how they iterate it's really hard to do studies like you don't do studies like that and human studies are so expensive that you would need to basically spend a minimum of $5 million to do a really gold standard NIH study these days nobody owns Nur feedback so there's all these pressures against getting it in the mainstream all these pressures you know for keeping it out and they're all conspired a little bit so you know it's remained in the the the control the baileywick of skilled individuals gurus you know people who have the magic knowledge and that's what I'm trying to get us out of I'm trying get the agency piece and teach you to read your own brain map not give you diagnosis but teach you to read the data and teach you to do some neur feedback towards whatever goals you want and that's the only real big difference that my company has compared to the field but there's something like 15,000 people in the world that do nerve feedback professionally now there's only 15,000 people in the world but you probably have 10,000 in in North America especially US and Canada so most cities you can find somebody doing it but they're going be doing it to you they're a therapist they're assessing you they're making decisions they're come up with diagnosis and they're helping you move to a therapeutic course with a container and some transference and all of that stuff which is amazing when you need all of that stuff but I think that there's this other place this gap between a doctor and a gym where you might want to look at your resources you know the biohackers do a blood test and go oh crap triglycerides back off in the b in Jerry's more keto you know you learn you learn the data points you take control you have agency if I showed you your Alpha Speed and your Alpha Speed is sliding down and running slower than you want and I could say oh word finding issues delayed recall tip of the tongue you oh my gosh yes okay it's your speed of processing concentration practices for meditation col energic neut Tropics race of trams neura feedback meditation of concentration versus Insight sleep packing with circadian support you know you start getting all of these ideas just by knowing how the system works so I can't stop that soapbox but uh oh it's so so exciting when you get involved in it and I I to that point I can share with people in my own experience and why I'm a big advocate of neural feedback I do a lot of speaking for a living um essentially I sell and promote things and interview people and present present information in attractive ways through a variety of communication channels it's part of the business of marketing and word smithing in combination with emotion and syntax how you say something how you hold space and how you articulate your words is a very big component to success in that endeavor and that's why certain people we are attracted to as public speakers or as presenters because they have an eloquence about them and yet even the most eloquent of our presenters in the world start to experience a decline over time brain degenerative conditions associated with the process of aging and some of these key attributes and anytime anyone has competency and this is what I call the athletes Advantage athletes discover the downside of Aging earlier than the general population because their field essentially Peaks before most people are really getting into what's good there you know a professional athlete for example peaks in their 20s to early 30s at the best and they're usually finished by 35 if if that's a great career and anything beyond that is an anomaly this is and and speaking or business that maybe that that Peak is in your mid-40s to mid-50s and then there's a precipitous drop off if you're talking executive function and then when we're talking about maybe the maximization of Life maybe someone at 55 has got their family worked out and their finances work out and their things work out but now they're on a physical decline or mental Decline and you know by 65 they're in some sort of compromised State and for all of those people neuro feedback provides a way of optimizing and reducing number one I would say increasing the height and extending the breadth of that Optimal Performance Zone uh and which enhances both your experience of life and your contribution to life and for my own self I have found that now when I speak as opposed to say five six years ago seven years ago whenever I started brain training it might be a little bit longer than that it seems it appears in my own representation of life that I have more time to think about the words and articulate those words than I had back then which I should be worse than then and now I'm better yeah so even though I'm significantly older than that time my capacity is actually improved now had I started brain training as a teenager or as a young adult who knows what the absolute top of the curve might have been but even now as a you know guy in his 50s I'm noticing significant benefits every time I do this and I go through intensive five day six day periods where I really push it hard multiple sessions a day some people tend to go over like a S series of weeks there's there's no right way to go about it but the transformational capacity of this makes me so motivated to share this with so many people in the world as it does with you what are the things that people are coming into the peak brain Institute to address that you they come in you do a brain may be like oh here it is you know what do this do this this is easy stuff because you've got so much experience around it yeah I would say about 23ds to three4 of the stuff that we work on is in that oh oh yeah one of these brains great straightforward and there's several different types of people with that you know within those uh buckets but um there's a bunch of stuff in the brain that you can think about as regulatory it's not really a fixed resource it's kind of meant to change and there's other stuff in the brain that's considered quote unquote primary where its job is to sort of do one thing or lock down a little bit like like language production is hard to do differently after age seven or visual Fusion is impossible nearly to do differently after age 6 months you can't do visual Fusion if you have a strabismus corrected after a or lazy eye after age 6 months you see double for most of your life probably because you can't learn to do visual Fusion again it's just locked down early in life has critical periods it's called other stuff meant to change it's meant to adjust doesn't always change easily or or smoothly but it kind of has that quality and I call these the regulatory features there about seven of them uh sleep stress and attention when I say stress I mean all of the anxiet iety flavors essentially perseveration rumination uh obsessiveness all kinds of stuff social social function Believe It or Not sensory function you know sensory integration picking out sounds and that kind of thing as well as speed of processing which is the access to information how rapidly you learn how rapidly you have you know access to verbal fluency and and language stacking like you're describing and then things like brain fog and Sleep Quality you can see those features and you can't see them in brain mapping but you can address them reliably things that are like brain stability phenomena these include migraines and seizures or failures of of regulatory stability so if it's a regulatory phenomena if it's got shape and change and is meant to be exercised you can change it so we get an awful lot of classic Nur feedback clients who have anxiety and ADHD trauma and they drink too much maybe not the same person maybe maybe the same person but it's all the classic stuff that humans deal with and it can be kids and adults it doesn't really matter and then we deal with some neuro stuff because it's brain people with concussions and migraines and you know major brain injuries and seizure disorders and other stuff that's really quite extreme and these days I'm getting an awful lot of neurological postco stuff too you know I have Decades of data on some of the same the same people sometimes and you can sort of see oh there's the co you know and after they got wow so you're actually seeing covid signals absolutely yeah what does that generally show up as I think that's curious because I I know some people who have spoken about long covid and symptomatic brain functioning issues yeah and is that related to covid or is that related to the treatments that were no it's co it's the same across people it doesn't matter why how it doesn't matter if you're vaccinated or not all matters is are you symptomatic or not and you can show the brain signatures without being symptomatic but you can not vice versa so if you're feeling the fog and it's from covid you'll see it in the brain now the thing is you don't know what you're looking at you can't see oh that's Co it looks just like a concussion it looks just like chemotherapy or a mold exposure or a lime exposure it looks the same broadly it's a brain fog signature you find out it's from Co by asking there are there's some characteristic nature to it for some people this temporal loes get more involved but no it it basically is a non-specific brain fog out of nowhere and you're like wow did you have a concussion no I've been feeling really crappy since Co though oh wow okay yeah that's what this is then so in that in what you're saying then even if someone got covid whether they whatever the treatment was they did whether it was no treatment or treatment the residual effects of the covid virus itself leaves a mark in some signature yeah I don't think it's every single time right I I think that about there's some people that are more predisposed I I I think it's about one out of three people who gets covid yeah it's a longer term sort of postco I I think we're going to discover there's something that let's call it postco versus long Co long Co is that like severe disautonomia brain fog lingering thing it seems to be a specific almost like autoimmune phenomena that's cropping up I think we're going to discover that there's a Time course of covid that is much longer than we have been you know talking about it's not 10 days it's like six months because there's lots of literature popping up showing neurological and cardiovascular events surging out of nowhere six months 3 to six months after infection and that's when I see the brain signature just like a concussion if you have a mild to moderate concussion you know adalita doesn't duck properly you know something it's right exactly like you won't you do a brain map right away to to grab a snapshot just in case something's really bad you'll see it but usually you don't see a concussion when you do an EEG right away but then it blooms over the next two or three months as this neuroinflammatory and metabolic load signature starts to emerge that shows up I think about one time out of three is my take because I ask people I ask clients as I do intakes about covid history and things like that I think it's one person out of three who gets covid who knows they've had it who then has neurological phenomena even if the covid is super mild I do believe it's that high it's one person out of three essentially so I think we're going to discover this this long tale of secondary immune activation inflammatory phenomena I think we're going to figure out that that's true and some people for whom that's just the straw that broke the camel's back those are the folks that fall over into a disautonomia long covid profoundly inflammatory you know state but I think we're going to figure out that there's something else under the covers that's sort of like having mono and being sick for six months in the background or having walking pneumonia and being sick for three months in the background I think we're going to figure that out because it looks like and there was a couple papers out last summer showing autopsies of people that were like documented in care facilities as having not had covid for 6 months and you found live virus in deep tissues so I think we're going to I think we're still learning more about it but I also think that you know doesn't really matter people end up having lots of wear and tear in their brains 50% of brain injuries have no symptoms right away but eight to 10 years later there's an inflammatory phenomena or a seizure or some wear and tear you just don't know you know you got to take good care of it but then thankfully it's an organ that's meant too largely shift and improve so unless you make big injuries to the brain you can kind of rebuild it so it doesn't matter why you have brain fog unless there's something keeping going you're sleeping underneath the black mold AC unit not going to get better doing neuro feedback or anything else but unless you're continuing to get your concussion collection you know big or you're continuing to get major immune hits again and again you the systems are resilient they enjoy being brought back to efficient low stress you know healed places generally so you know I wouldn't worry too much about it CO's kind of like it's a thing you can't really avoid getting at this stage you know in our in our modern world there are people for whom they must be careful because of increased risk and that means some isolation Andor you know choices around vaccination which I think has its own you know immune loading phenomena but I think that we've reached the point now as a as a world where you know it's kind of like it it really reminds me a little bit I I might be a few years older maybe the same age but you I remember in the 80s when HIV was like terrifying because that's right you didn't know and you're a teenager and sex is a thing you're you're sex you're sexed up you want everything but you're terrified at the same time terrified of this new thing the world's going to kill you and I feel like we've got we've you know we reached a point where we had treatments then it became non-lethal then we have medications and then we have destig destigmatization of safer sex and that you know the whole culture shift around that I sort of think with regards to Corona viruses in general be it the common cold or Co itself we're at the beginning of a an accommodation a safety thing and I don't know where that's going to lead you know I wouldn't have known in the 80s would have retrovirals and you know giving out condoms right to high school kids and things like that but you know I I think that we're shifting now and I think keeping yourself safe through whatever wear and tear whatever injury whatever you know things your brain absorbs you know you have to you have to have your own level of risk tolerance and exposure and then deal with the phenomena and build yourself back if you need to you know as a phenomena there too so I have a theory and I just want to get you to slice it or say hey there's some or refine it slice it or refine it in that would you say that within the self-re or the regulatory mechanisms within the body like Exciter nerves or inhibitory nerves or you know all these kind of different processes that keeps your brain functioning properly that they can be disrupted by uh immune toxicity uh a stressful moment a traumatic experience a physical impact uh response to a toxin a medication something in the environment or something all of these could throw if you will the direction of your brain like a ship going a little bit off course it's it it's not noticeable when you leave the port in England that you shift it maybe one or two degrees but that determines whether you end up in Greenland or in Miami oh I would say almost yes all those things have an impact and yes all those things provide sort of steering pressure away from let's say regulatory Safe Harbor to butcher our metaphors a tiny bit but the system has gravity it has an attractive attracting basins it wants to live in a certain place it doesn't want to roll up the side of the Basin into seizure into sleeping all day long into depression it wants to live in the efficient safe useful place so it takes a while of pushing yourself on one Ed of the regulatory modes before it cramps up there or reallocates resources there like the back midline for instance is the posterior singulate The Lifeguard watch the road heads up and we all have one we all use it if you learn the world is not safe or predictable it cramps up super high and you're evaluating for danger all the time and that might be appropriate or you might be stuck in that in a low stress environment we call that PTSD that evaluation that stuck in high gear you know visceral place the brain needs to learn to accommodate and that's regulatory but sometimes you know the the reasons we regulate will bias us towards regulating into the more uncomfortable places the cost of missing danger really high cost of missing pleasurable things and yummy things not that high you'll see more tomorrow you miss a tiger H you're not going to have more opportunities to avoid tigers perhaps so we over bias towards negative threatening dangerous loss driven environments and that tends to create some of this like you know human suffering experience that we're we're attached to the thing we're pushing back against a little bit by Framing the negative um so I do think news for example tends to hyper emphasize the negative because people default to a threat as opposed to hey here's some great news or's some good news response and negativity bias especially if you learn things were always negative then you that's gonna suck that's gonna suck that's you know it's the context as well but then then the regulatory modes become their own attractors in the Basin so to speak so then you end up with your posterior singulate who's learned that sharks exist so now you're looking for sharks in the indoor pool what no brain come on this fresh water yeah but sharks okay I'm sitting reading a book is it a Shark book come on brain what are you you doing like it's it's it's over biasing so a lot of the stuff we suffer from anxiety stress sleep attention Cravings they're Regulatory and you can reframe them that way take control of massage those circuits feel them change and have a different relationship within I'm just out of control of my experience my behavior so the the the the ship metaphor and the steering is I think quite you know tight except that there's this mechanism whose job it is to pull it back towards pork constantly so you got to kind of work at disregulated unless you're unlucky you know certain types of stressors that are very strongly uh acute severe will disregulated quite strongly you know you can terrify somebody into a seizure or traumatize emotionally traumatize somebody in a seizure it's rare doesn't usually happen usually you can much more easily dehydrate somebody or give them amphetamine into a seizure much more easily or certain antidepressants but there are people for whom you know you or or much more easily you can you can startle someone into a faint right there it's the Veo vasal reaction the Vegas nerve right what happens in the Vegas doesn't stay in the vegus ironically and it cause these huge shifts of physiological change and the body collapses or the fainting goats you know you the goat freezes and falls over as a survival mechanism a vagal vasal response yes the system reacts hyper strong that's that's at the edge of that stability that's when you've crossed out of the Basin and you're now in a different mode you're having a seizure or you're no longer sleeping or you're not coming back to ground after stress you're staying activated that's when I think you're moving into like disregulation or even illness level phenomena where you're really having trouble but those are you know still relatively tractable things just hard to get out of without a push up over that that edge of that Basin so to speak you know it's really powerful um other than say improving or regulating or eliminating suboptimal States how does brain training help us cultivate optimal States or develop unique or new skills that have not been accessible yeah so maybe you could walk us through some someone coming in for you know a situation that was causing a problem for them in life and they wanted to overcome that to go in they go through a series of treatments and everything they automatically notice it but then they realize oh I got this other little thing that I'm now interested I'm kind of good at poetry that I never thought of that before and then you go oh well would you like to enhance that what do you mean I can enhance poetry well I didn't even know I had the skill two months ago I was you know suffering from my lack of Y you know verbal ideal idealization ideation and now I am a poet and maybe I'm thinking about becoming a rapper when it's like well here's the brain thing so what's that like for you how many people a lot a lot of people have have those discontinuous experiences when when you're working in your brain it's everything so right a lot a lot more than you might expect like a lot of folks move from a a fixing into a you know high high performance or or Flow State kind of perspective um I have a a more than a handful of very similar um sort of success stories where I'm working with some high-powered CEO type who's a little to type a a little obsessive kind of anxious kind of not sleeping great in their mid-50s ridiculously successful but kind of rigid kind of brittle kind of an and we do some work on their sleep they anxiety they're whatever and get them some optim optimization and then six or eight weeks in I'm like wow we're looking really good with these primary goals years hey would you like to do a little more work and blend in some of these other things and they're like oh yeah it sounds good and I'm telling them things like Flow State and access Consciousness and IDE you know ideas and generative uh you know creativity and stuff and then I got a call or an email from their spouse whatever you did do it again we had the best therapy session he brought me flowers he he he made dinner what are you doing what are you doing there at Peak brain like the creativity the love the communication some of this you mentioned earlier Dr Hart uh James Hart the the the access Consciousness stuff is actually really accessible using Alpha Theta Alpha synchrony Alpha Flow State work and you can reliably educate your ability to do that if you do that work and you don't have the ability to put your emotions into language suddenly you do or you've started to create that that ability that resource or um I have some folks I haven't had amazing success but some there's a phenomena called uh a Fantasia which is when you can't visualize pictures and something like one out of six people might have some version of it it's not a complete version but it's somewhat common and you can do alpha and other visual tissue driven creativity stuff and actually create visual images while you're having a technologically assisted power naap essentially and for folks that haven't had that experience it gives you a little bit of a softness a little bit of a creativity a little bit of visual experience and it starts to unlock some stuff so we often get these these effects kind of anyway I'm not usually saying hey do you need to be more in touch with your emotions CEO I'm not usually saying that the person's usually like okay great so we're work on on now I want to work on my uh motivation and my speed of processing I'm like great okay for your speed of processing I think we might want to try relaxing you deeply first oh that sounds great all right try this and then and then wow I felt really like I had somebody yesterday try Alpha Theta this this technique for the first time and what was the phrase she used I think she used the phrase the only way I can describe it is uncomplicated Joy put in a state of uncomplicated Joy or something afterwards and it does you know neur feedback does create State shifts you feel a little different often after sessions the real big thing is the trait shift look for the changes in resources I don't love to create states with your feedback and to chase States some of the short five-day programs are really about creating an experience like a shamanic sweat lodge with technology you you have the experience you might Harvest something out of having had the experience but I prefer to do neur feedback across weeks and months and create change like multiple standard deviations of permanent change as a resource and and very slowly and very gradually so that you have this opportunity to shape it to build it up to consolidate it so um but yeah I would say that we do get a lot of that Peak performer Flow State some of it's goal some of it's incidental I work with a lot of athletes who um tend to work with me after injuries uh NHL NFL um UK UK football players um some divers some you know people who get injuries essentially in their Sport and suddenly they're in an outof playay protocol and you can see the concussions but you know in all these high level athletes you also see stress and executive stuff and suboptimal sleep and you start working on someone's brain and suddenly their brain fog is gone they like okay doc I feel better than I felt since before my first concussion in high school it's like 40 you know post NFL or you do some work on someone's brain and you know like their seizure disorder their sleep and their physical therapist calls you what are you doing to my client she walked in without a cane what are you doing oh really oh that's great some Elder you know who has a arm or something and no and no balance things soften and open up but you never quite know and some of this is because you're taking plasticity with every neuro feedback session you're taking plasticity and boosting it for a while for like 24 hours probably at least and this good research show that you get a a pretty notable change in just the background plasticity so you can shape the individual circuits the microcolumns but asking for shaping right it's a global plasticity change so the other stuff you're doing lands harder too we're talking about visualization so one of the traditional reflections of the human brain or State of Consciousness in say Indian culture is the blooming of a Lotus and for people who want a visual what happens as an experiential representation it's like your brain is a partially open flower and like if you get enough sunlight into it and we could use that as the brain frequencies or access to them there's an unfoldment of the beauty of the flower in the beauty of your own brain and it's something I've witnessed Within Myself and my friends that have gone we've all had this transformative unfolding of what was previously just potential unfolding into a much Fuller experience which is correlated with our life experience you mentioned something really important about the peak brain Institute and that you do slow and gradual change that people are systematically people go well I'm not in California I'm not in this place but you provide opportunities for people I believe that don't have to actually be in there they could be in a rural area they can be on the side of the other side of the world so this is a unique aspect of what you're providing for people is that they have the ability to train at home using this technology how did that come about and why is the peak brain Institute focusing on this as as one of the value ads that you are performing in your institution yeah I mean I guess because I'm so education focused and a bit of a you know talking head on this topic of neuro feedback and you know functional neuroscience and you know tailored individualized Neuroscience people find me and I started getting client referrals from all over the place and doing remote work even before this company I have now and uh the ability to provide access to neur feedback really does dovetail with my goals for teaching people about their brains I mean my goals are to sell you agency not necessarily neura feedback I want you to take some control I don't care what you do I mean I sure pay us money for neur feedback but the goal is really to you know get you into that perspective so as I evangelize this T this IDE aide of hey learn about your brain people are like but you're not near me and uh we used to do hybrid remotes we'd come to one of our offices for a couple days and then do everything else remote and then we went full remote so we do have um six offices six presences in the US sorry six in worldwide there's four in the US which include two in Southern California St Louis and Manhattan in New York City and then uh We've also got London and Stockholm overseas and those six locations see about 20% of our clients and all the rest we send all the equipment and now we do remote brain mapping and that's the big thing that few people do remotely is the actual cap on the head things and our coaches we call them coaches they run your equipment for you and work with you teaching you stuff and getting you over the technical hurdles and we run you through learning neuro feedback and sticking wires on your head and we have this live coaching process where we give you a private channel it's always open 7 days a week and you've got all these enthusiastic Neuroscience hackers on your private chat ready to jump on and place a wire troubleshoot some software uh come do some research with me to do protocol development for some new goal that you mentioned and you can then execute on the stuff that you we think you might want to try and report back on how you notice it and have a good team there to help you develop the more sophisticated or iterative version of same so we really decoupled from the office phenomena pretty aggressive mely and uh you know we offer the the the fee structure is such for neuro feedback programs that it's lower than therapy rates generally so we end up being about half as much as the average therapist but in your home and if you're in one of the countries we're in Sweden the UK or the US there's nothing to buy you just do a service program for a few months we send you whichever package whichever gear you know you got migraines we do blood flow training you've got you know uh anxiety some heart rate variability training alongside the the EEG and we build these tailored programs and work with folks for a few months and end up getting the same work done the same software the same Hardware same coaches uh in our offices as we have virtually and uh we encourage our people often ask me hey is it as good at home is it is it you get better effects in the office little secret we encourage you to train more often when you're at home we want you to do if you can four times a week so in three months you get 55 sessions done in our offices we do three times a week because that's plenty but if you have the gear and the brain and the goals do more why not we don't charge anything extra for it but it means you can get a lot more done and so folks that want to structure a bit of time and stay in contact with what's happening and learn some stuff and put up with the slight hassle of doing it can actually take it further than they could if they were working with a therapist because they're getting deeper into it and doing more essentially so so yeah our remote program is a lot of what we do and uh I mean you can come train in our LA office or you know Manhattan if you want to we're we're there but uh you have to come during open hours you know regular business hours but otherwise you can train from home and ask some coach who's gonna be online to help you stick a wire on and you know check the placement if you need so one final question um before we sign off where do you see neuro feedback feedback all this whole industry where do you see this going in the in in the future the next 10 20 30 50 years yeah so I'm really dependent on brain mapping and having a perspective of the model of you that we're working on helping you change and that's an imperfect you know through glass Darkly kind of like 10,000 foot view confusing information landscape part of why it's so hard to understand is because we're looking at sort of artificially static snapshots you know one person in the morning without caffeine and you have to have thousands of people to compare them to to have a sort of sense of how that's unusual but people are a bit more variable than that and while a brain map the way it's done now is stable day-to-day you're not getting daily variability because you're being careful about how you're Gathering data so I think that we'll hit a point where we can have sort of longitudinal tracking on like you know we have sleep trackers and things and if we also had the speedier alpha and if you're using cannabis and when you took your Aderall indexed in time against Brain measurements now we're starting to get more of a wild type if you will database of brain variability and less of an illness versus the middle of the bell curve data type which is sort of how it's conceptualized now that's Step One is the better sort of like biohackers perspective on how to coate all the data I'm working on that I have some software I'm working on to help us have Fitness tracker for the brain kind of stuff this year I promise guys um but that's the first step The Next Step I think is we're going to be able to have essentially intelligent avatars data sets that we can experiment on oh let me give my brain data set some Aderall and see how it reacts o my brain doesn't like Aderall apparently not taking it just testing the model of executive function because I think where we've reached the ability between the generative models and the Machine learning models and the llm models and the actual data we understand with the brain I think we've reached the point now where you can throw up a model of a brain your brain and test drugs test interventions test sleep hacks test biohacks test versions and magnesium by the way thank you I have to say we'll talk more about this at some point but I got this lovely package from eye optimizers with some magnesium and digestive enzymes in it I'm very excited to to take those but um I think we're going to the place where you're gonna be able to do the tailored biohacking thing but in a prospective way you know you can build test your genes like even now you can do a methylation status and go oh yeah methylal balamin hydroxy balamin oh that's a better version for me probably and you're probably right not always methylation but it you know it's it's getting closer I think that stuff is where the brain is going to be the the brain Frontier will be uh broken through right now even just fitting the drug you might need for your depression the psychiatrist doesn't necessarily know how to pick the right drug MH and you can use a qeg to predict drug response in depression if you take an anti-depressant 10 days after you take it your brain shows the change it's gonna feel month later amazing so I think that's where we're going is this like more testing the intervention landscape using that really rich data set to start to model our transformation in advance of actually doing it you know test test beds essentially very exciting where do people find out more about you your organization how they can get started on brain training I can't encourage people enough to go do that so if you could give us all the the handles the connections where they can find out more and I can say wholeheartedly if you on the fence about brain training you think it might be for you just go do it just go do it it will change your life thanks for that we you can check us out at uh Peak brain institute.com as main website I think all the socials are still at Peak brain La um which you can check us out on all the major social places and uh we also have some overseas sites but you can get to any of our countries from our main website so you know come hit us up chat all all the senior coaches hang out on the chat box it's not some random bot or call center it's actually the all the coaches because we're online seven days a week helping you train your brain so come come chat with us about your brain it's amazing Dr Andre Hill youve you're doing a great contribution into society into the future of many generations to come and compiling all that data and providing that service is is something that's truly incredible thank you for that of course thank you thank you to our listeners this is wayt lightheart this is the awesome Health podcast from bioptimizers go do some brain training believe me you'll be glad you did thank you so much and we'll see you on the next episode at bioptimizers our mission is to fix digestion and a Cornerstone of digestion is gut Flora p3om is our patented probiotic formula in fact we call it the Navy Seals of probiotics you see strong proteolytic or protein digesting activity is Paramount to having a healthy gut flora and of course p3om provides that the good news is unlike weaker probiotics p3om survives the digestion process what it does is it basically multiplies the good guys while protecting you against pathogens or what some people call the bad guys p3om really helps to rebuild your digestion and what that allows you to do is to maximize nutrient uptake Energy and Metabolism to find out more of how p3om can help you go to www bioptimizers decom thank you for listening to the bi Optimizer awesome health podcast you can find more information at bioptimizers tocom [Music]